Could you pick Steel "Brand" blinfolded?????

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 28 Oct 2003 5:26 am

Everyone has an opinion on TONE, etc-If you were in a room blindfolded and a good player was demonstrating guitars- could you determine which "BRAND" being played Sho-Bud, Emmons, Zum etc.?????? Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 28 Oct 2003 5:56 am

There have been tests like that conducted and almost all of those who claimed they could, couldn't. To begin with the tone/timbre difference between guitars is minimal. I believe when you remove the eyes all bets are off.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 28 October 2003 at 05:58 AM.]

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 28 Oct 2003 6:07 am

Very true.

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 28 Oct 2003 6:19 am

Ha, How true, Paul.
Someone played a cassett back in the 80's for me to see if I could tell the difference. ONE steel, 5-6 different Tones, 6-8 different songs, and I'm saying.."That's a Brand X...now that one is...."
When the fellow stoped the tape, he showed me the Cassett, and on the front, there was a Brand "....", with Mr."...." playing the SAME steel on each cut. Sheeesh....Missed by SEVERAL miles. Needless to say, now I tell people when they ask me that question, "I DON'T KNOW"

Blew my mind. Just when you think you got the "Tone" thing down pat...Ha..Right

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 28 Oct 2003 7:41 am

A skillful player gets his/her tone, whatever it takes (knob twistin', right hand position, etc.), regardless of the rig. It's usually the less experienced players that make a big deal out of stuff like brand names.

It is true that most players have one or more brands (guitas and amps) that they get their tone out of easier and that's the one they go with. As we've seen with all of our 'icons', that choice can change from time to time and some prefer multiple brands.

My good buddy Frank is a bit of an exception to that principle. He's been making beautiful music on that old Marlen for the 25 years or so I've known him.

Personally, I love owning a push-pull and a Fessy. Both are instruments that say 'lets make music' when I sit down to them. That's all I ask for in a guitar.

oh yeah, the question at hand:
I believe that a Fender and a Bigsby are probably the only guitars that I believe I could pick out of a crowd. A lot will say that about a push-pull, but so many builders shoot for that sound that it's difficult to tell the 'pretenders' to the real thing, especially in the studio. But the Fender and Bigsby steels sang with their own voice.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 October 2003 at 07:48 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Oct 2003 7:53 am

Yeah, I'm not at all surprised the blindfold test doesn't work. All you have to do is change the EQ, amp or speaker, and who can tell. Also, is the player picking hard or lightly, playing up the neck getting low overtones, or down by the pickup getting only high overtones, bare fingers, plastic picks, metal picks, soft picks, hard picks, etc.?

Still the brand can make a difference to the player. Some brands are just easier to get the tone you want. And working the volume pedal can compensate for lack of sustain for the listener, but the player can tell when there is more or less sustain. And there are hot and cold pickups, mellow and brassy, etc. Then there's the action. A listener couldn't really hear that directly, but if the action is better, the player might play a little better. And there's maintenance - I'll be a better player if I spend more time playing and less time as a mechanic. My goal is to get my equipment to the point that I can only blame my limitations on myself.

Maybe the more interesting test would be to have the player blindfolded and let him try to guess the brand, or at least pick the one he prefers.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 28 October 2003 at 08:02 AM.]

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 28 Oct 2003 8:32 am

Paul Franklin is 100% correct regardless what the Emmons cult (and I have 3) say.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 28 Oct 2003 8:47 am

..I am not a cultist..

...I can't dial in my own sound two days in a row and recognize it..I know I couldn't pass the blindfold test..too many variables..

..on the other hand, if you played a couple six-string licks from, say, David Gilmore, Carlos Santana, George Harrison, BB King..any one of us here could tell you in 3 notes who was playing...

...I haven't been around steel long enough yet to pass the blindfold steeler test, but I'm sure lots of you have...[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 28 October 2003 at 09:00 AM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 28 Oct 2003 9:09 am

The only thing I can pick blindfolded is my nose.....

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Oct 2003 10:17 am

Well just gave a 20 song cassette by the "old" Willie Nelson a listen, and if it wasn't an old Sho~Bud, I'll eat the tape. (if my cassette player hasn't already..)

Yeah, it'd be as hard as telling a tele or les paul. Too much depends on the pickups, circuitry, and other variables.

EJL

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Oct 2003 10:18 am

I can pick Jack Daniels over Jim Beam.

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 28 Oct 2003 10:27 am

the Emmons cult

Emmons "cult?"...hmmm.

Dave

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 28 Oct 2003 10:43 am

Hummmmm, after reading this thread, we tried this test here in my store. Just finished as a matter of fact, and every one in the test (6) players, could tell what they were hearing, and knew what they liked and what they didn't. If a player can't tell the difference by hearing, what difference do his eyes make?
Do some of you hear with your eyes? I can't. I guess I don't have a very good "Eye" for music.
The next time I go play a job, I won't take my guitar, I'll just take picture of it,
that way, everyone can understand what they are seeing(hearing). Should be a lot lighter also.
Yup, doesn't matter what you sound like, its what you look like. Seems like the entire music business is going this way! Guess I'm the last of a dying breed, I'd rather "see' with my ears.

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 28 Oct 2003 10:53 am

That's interesting. I think it's probably a lot easier when you hear the steel all by itself. When it's mixed into a track with all of those other pesky instruments and voices ("Hey, who's that singing over my steel licks?"), it's harder to tell.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 28 Oct 2003 11:00 am

Huh? wha'd I say?
I think it takes a person a long time to aquire a taste for a sound, I know it took me many years to decide what I liked and what I didn't. The longer someone is a player, the more of an opinion he has on the sounds he likes. I'd even go as far as to say, it may take as much as 30 years, and hearing and trying many different types of equipment to aquire a definite, hard opinion of the sounds we prefer. Naturally, this is a true opinion of taste, not to be influenced by "free endorsments", or by having some sort of "factory connections" that may tend to slant our true opinions of taste and quality. When listening to someones opinions, (even mine) look at the reasons for them stating their opinions. There may or may not be underlying reasons for them to have offered the opinion. What's this got to do with this post? Hummmmm, who cares.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Oct 2003 11:54 am

I've never liked "all or nothing" observations now that I think about it. The "camel" seems somehow to slip completely into the tent.

I can tell a panhead from a shovel, both of them from an Evo, and all three from a twin cam. Same motor configuration. Different combustion chamber shapes, compression and gear train composition.

Apon further reflection, I could definitely tell a stock Sierra from a stock Sho~Bud by virtue of the sound alone. As well as a standard SB with an Emmons.

If the point is that nothing matters in the differences of pedal steel guitars when it comes to sound, or "in the right hands" a cigar box fiddle sounds undescernable from a strad, somewhere along the line I'd have to put my foot down ad say that I'm not buying it.

I'll bet Yitzak Perlman could play a cigar box fiddle better than I could play a Stradivarius. Does that mean that a cigar box is all that a beginner, or intermediate player deserves because they don't know any better? Even if it's a high priced cigar box made out of upsidasium alloy...

I think not..

Mr's E and C can play a Sierra better than I'll ever play my Sho~Bud. Does that mean that I should rush out and buy one?

I don't happen to like "Emmonses". I think their string placement is too narrow, and their "stock" sound too muddy. Nobody seems to care. I don't get bashed back to the stone age. I don't get letters from Mr.Lashley.. That's awfully strange...

Why do some people get their underwear in knots about "certain guitars"? There are certain brands that you don't want to "diss" in any way or you'll find severe consequences. Why is that?

Just how many of us here are partially representing manufacturers here?

Does that somehow change their "objectivity"?

It's sure starting to look that way.

Now If you'll excuse me I have about 12 hours of practicing/programming to deal with on my new Pod xt USB function so I can post some clips of my worn out Sho~Bud, and some Patsy Cline rehearsal to do..

Maybe I'll plug in that old WN tape of JCD and listen to his Sho~Bud, or is it a Mullen, or a Sierra, or a Fender or a zum, or a ....

SSM

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 October 2003 at 12:02 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Oct 2003 12:16 pm

The question should really be...

If blindfolded , could you tell if you were playing a D10 or S10 ...

" Holy missing strings Batman !"

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 28 Oct 2003 1:04 pm

All I know is that two name players walked into the Opry to set up last week when Tommy White was playing his Sho-Bud. Within ten seconds one turned to the other and said "Listen to that, Tommy must be playing his Sho-Bud tonight". Its THAT recognizable.
Other forum members here have also commented on Tommy's fabulous tone that same night. I own both a Sho-Bud and a Zb Custom. Two totally different recognizable sounds that I am hearing. I guess we will all continue to differ in opinion on this.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 28 October 2003 at 01:04 PM.]

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 28 Oct 2003 1:18 pm

I have heard Paul Franklin play live and I also have some of his CD's and his tone is as perfect as his playing, it doesn't matter what Buddy Emmons sits down behind because it will have great tone and perfection, Dave Robbins always knocks me out with his tone, Tommy white always sounds great, it's impossible to beat the tone and clarity that Lloyd Green gets, take a listen to Bucky Reid sometime and hear his tone and John Hughey & Hal Rugg and the tone they have been creating and let's throw Bobbe Sleazmour into this mix because he does have great tone. All the above play different brands of guitars. All of the above sound like themselves. All of the above have great tone. The name on the front of the guitar doesn't play nearly as big a roll as the person sitting behind the guitar. 15 in front of the bandstand who notices? No one unless you are playing sh!tty or your amp is tweaked wrong!

Mike Weirauch
member of: Emmons Cult
Zum Cult
JCH Cult
Carter Cult
edited for spelling and whatever else I want to change because it's my post and, and, and, and, well it's just my post so there![This message was edited by Mike Weirauch on 28 October 2003 at 01:23 PM.]

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 28 Oct 2003 1:23 pm

About 2 months ago I traded in my Sho-Bud Pro III Custom . At the dealer's place he played my Bud, and later another brand of guitar through the same amp with the same settings. The difference was huge.
The grain in the sound of the Sho-Bud is sooooo beautifull. If you can't hear it, you're missing half of what makes a steel sound beautifull. I can't tell blindfolded which brand of steel guitar is being played, but I can tell if it's a good sounding guitar or not.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 28 Oct 2003 2:12 pm

Bobbe,
I'd be interested in knowing who those six players are who just participated in your test. With all due respect, I have a hard time believing you could set up, for example, a Zum, a LeGrande, a push-pull, a Mullen, a Fessy, and a Franklin and all six participants accurately identified EACH guitar without looking or being otherwise prompted. Sorry, I just don't buy it. Who were they? Was that how you conducted the experiment? Of course, they knew what they liked but did they accurately identify THE BRAND? From among how many?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 28 Oct 2003 2:53 pm

I think it is safe to say that most of us could recognize the tone of a push-pull from an all pull guitar blindfolded. Beyond that I am very skeptical.

Terry

Fessy cult
Nash1000 cult

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 28 Oct 2003 2:54 pm

Larry
I understand that with Bobbe's test, the participants didn't have their backs turned or were blindfolded, but the logos of each of the guitars had tape over them, thereby obscuring what brand each guitar was.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 28 Oct 2003 3:03 pm

Be sweet, Brother Herb. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 28 Oct 2003 4:46 pm

Well , you want to know who they are? Well, one of them is still here and his name is Jerry Fessenden! He also just delivered a 12 string to me and it sounds as good as any guitar I have ever heard him build, The other five? Let me get permission tomorrow and I'll post them too!
bobbeseymour