C6th tuning.......the bastard child to some

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 24 Oct 2003 7:40 am

Anyone that's followed the Forum very long can't help but notice how many times contributors have commented about the ageless C6th tuning.(some variations do exist)
Most have it on their dbl-10's, but "just never got around to exploring it". Others
have repeatedly related this tuning to "JAZZ"
and/or blues "only". Others just can't figure it out. Others seem totally mystified.
My question is: Since C6th and E9th tunings are merely two "tools" for the artist to select from.....how is it that it presents such a "deep problem" for some while to many others.....it has been the long standing foundation of nearly all their playing?
Just about all the old-timers, at one time or another used it as their main-stay. For some of the late bloomers, guys that started way back in the olden days, like, the mid-90's or late '80's, C6th remains the undiscovered "mother lode" for many a wanna-be steel player. Where's your sense of adventure guys?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 24 Oct 2003 8:01 am

Ray..I think that it's not really a question of why some don't play it but rather they are learning the upper ten first so they can at least play a tune or two and play in a band..maybe..

My totally biased opinion is that those that have played other Instrument PRE-Steel,will adapt to either tuning with some understanding right out of the gate..Those that do not play other Instruments and have ventured to the Steel as their first Instrument ( as crazy as this may be ) will lean toward the E9th neck because thats probably what drove them to the Instrument to begin with.

Teh A+B pedals and how they interact with the tuning can get folks bending chords and making glisses pretty rapidly where as the lower ten does require at least a minimal understanding in theory. And without the presence of an A+B pedal to get you around within the same string grips folks just see it as foreign. Yes I know, peds 5,6 and 7 are pretty awsome in there respective relationship to the tuning..but it's gonna take some desire to sit and work with them.

Truth be know..in my little mind..is that the C6th tuning is actually easier to play a song first time thru than the E9th ! I don't spend near enough time on the C6th tuning but when I do I am always amazed at it simplicity..and brilliance..

The Pedal Steel..either tuning , is a nightmare in it's initial learning curve compared to just about any other Instrument..and now you want us to single string pick at meter on the C6th too !

I fully agree though that the tuning, once studied just a bit is really fun to play..

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 October 2003 at 09:03 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Oct 2003 8:29 am

If you didn't come from the western swing tradition, then it was Nashville,
and that, being newer, meant most gravitated to the E9.

Eventually as their "country ears" expanded backwards in time, more western stuff came into play, and the desire to play C6 grew, so they learned it.

Until I got a rellatively recent earfull of Lloyd Green I had little interest in E9, because I already was into Western swing as the slightly squarer basterd child of jazz.

Much of the classic E9 period of country wasn't my cup of tea anyway, except for the steelers.

On the quickness of C6 vs E9, I think there are a few things missing on the "normal" C6 copedent that hampered the speed avaialble relative to E9, and this made many shy away from it.
But that said, with a few additions it gets much faster. Some of the best current players have added these changes and are in continual search for more of them.
An example ; the long list of BE copedents people wade though to figure how he does it.
Oh yes, and I can't forget PF either.

I figured starting with one of BE's was as good a place start, and now I have made some additions to fit me.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 October 2003 at 09:32 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 24 Oct 2003 8:56 am

i'm w: Tony on this one

i'm no reference when it comes to steelin, but i really appreciate C6 over E9
it must be that rich tone as compared to E9
like most,the E9 Nashville tuning brought me to the PSG
when i got my first D10 3 years ago, i did'nt know nothin'bout C6.
Thanx to BE's Basic C6 and some Swingin' series tabs,i got put on the track and have enjoyed C6 every day since Buddy get's ya' playin' from bar 1
since i play guitbox and prefer chords over fancy solos, i was'nt put off by C6.
i find E9 a bit more confusing than C6 but as i progress i often try to find the similitude between each neck and i like to trade off on both
Since i play Blues and some Jazz i find that C6 is more appropriate.
when it comes to playin' Country Stuff E9 is the standard for me but i manage to find pertinent C6 ideas that fit even if i'm gettin' paid to play E9.
YES, C6 can be easy and it sure is a lot of Fun (but then so is E9)
btw: Smiley sent me his CD, and when he told me he only played E9, i was surprised cause it sounded a lot like C6 to me.

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Steel what?

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 24 October 2003 at 09:58 AM.]

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 24 Oct 2003 9:35 am

again I say "E9 FOR A DIME,C6TH FOR KICKS"
If you want to make a living playing you gotta know the signature e9 licks BUT!!!c 6th is my passion and there some things i play on c6th that sound very E9-ish...i love both necks i play both necks ( ieven play B6th) As said earlier in this thread I would take it one further and say not only c6th but the entire concept of a steel guitar utterly facinates me!!!
I love my wife but my passion is steel guitar and to cheat my passion by limiting my knowledge is crazy. You have in your lap the most beautiful artform in the world. who else can do what we do. don't let a small thing like tuning limit that...enough said.. i'm out

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 24 Oct 2003 10:12 am

The definition of a gentleman:
A man who can play C6,......
but doesn't!!

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 24 Oct 2003 12:09 pm

An E9th: sings, A C6th: Plays. Jerry Brightman worked for Buck and Hank T. Buck told him "don't touch the back neck" and Hank told him "don't touch the front neck". Both tunings have their own niche. John Hughey is known for his crying high altitude E9 but his C6 playing is second to none and his does it with equal grace and is my favorite of all his playing. It's also my favorite place to play because of the extended possiblities over the E9. Lloyd Green proved his can play the back neck but prefered not to. Jimmy Day played both equally well as shown in his album years ago. Different strokes for different folks. Proves, those who can, do. Those who can't, can't, won't, shouldn't and may never.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 24 Oct 2003 12:20 pm

The C6 neck represents a tonality and a style of music that is foreign to most steel players. #11 chords, minor7b5 chords, minor9 and the list goes on. Todays' steelers seem to have a musical vocabulary/vision/ability more in line with playing "Mansion on the Hill" rather than "Prelude to a Kiss" or a Broadway standard. These jazz standards and pop and Broadway tunes are where the majority of the musical world lives. Playing this music requires a deeper understanding of chord melody, voice leading, chord substitutions, soloing over more interesting and challenging changes, etc. When your more involved with playing that consists of 3 chords and a cloud of dust then you play the E9 neck and that's OK.

I don't see the C6 neck itself being so baffling to a player as much as the lack of musical thought/knowledge that it takes to utilize the neck. If the music is in your head then all you have to do is find it on the neck. If the music is not in your head then you won't have a clue what your looking for on the neck.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 24 Oct 2003 12:29 pm

The definition of a gentleman: A man who can play C6...but doesn't!!

Lloyd Green proved he can play the back neck but preferred not to.

Dave Burton · Post by **Dave Burton** » 24 Oct 2003 2:23 pm

I can't help but chime in here.C6th and E9th are very time connected. Back in the time of standards,C6th was probably played while traditional country called for E9th.I would think many of the older players have played the 6th neck more than the 9th, any truth to this guys?I play a U12 and find myself going from one tuning to the next in the same song,therefore is it really 2 necks or just different ways to play the same thing?The evolution of this instrument is very interesting,Stay Tuned..... no pun intended

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Oct 2003 3:46 pm

I go to the back neck for Hank Williams songs, western swing and boogie. It's great for that stuff. I don't play jazz at all, but that doesn't stop me from playing C6th. As much as I hear about "#11 chords, minor7b5 chords, minor9" etc., I've never even looked for those chords. Sixths, ninths and an occasional diminished are all I ever use.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 24 Oct 2003 5:29 pm

I'm more comfortable on C6, so If I don't know the material, that's the neck I go to first.

Tom Wicks · Post by **Tom Wicks** » 24 Oct 2003 6:18 pm

I was raised in the big band era and the c6 sound was the in thing but now I back a group of country singers and they want e9 so myself and many like me rarely use the c6 tuning exept in their music room, so sad. Tom

JERRY THURMOND · Post by **JERRY THURMOND** » 24 Oct 2003 6:27 pm

If it wasn't for C6th I may not have taken up steel, like Scott said E9th make money, but the C6th is where all the fun is. Jerry

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Oct 2003 8:03 pm

Steel guitars have two necks so that we can play both kinds of music: Country and Western!

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 24 Oct 2003 8:40 pm

It was the C6 playing on the Travis album by Curly Chalker that got me motivated to take on this home-wrecking contraption and I haven't been the same since but it's sure fun.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 24 Oct 2003 8:53 pm

E9 makes money?

Carl West · Post by **Carl West** » 25 Oct 2003 6:50 am

I have to agree with Bill on this one, as he said:
"If the music is in your head then all you have to do is find it on the neck. If the music is not in your head then you won't have a clue what your looking for on the neck."
C6th or E9th whichever you prefer will come to you sooner when you start doing what you can do instead of attempting what others do.
While sitting behind any D-10 we have all at one time or the other wanted to be someone else with an ability to do what they do . . . Should we accomplish this, what have we gained since that player already exists. Be yourself.

Carl West

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 25 Oct 2003 7:25 am

Earnest, just enough to offer some croissants and a rose to your wife when you get home in the morning
"a Gentlemen is one who avoids roiling the water"

Duane Noom · Post by **Duane Noom** » 25 Oct 2003 9:13 am

I've been playing E9th for the past 25+ years. Had a couple of D-10s because everybody else did, but didn't venture down on the botton neck enough to speak of. After playing a Pro I for the past 15 years I just picked up a Pro III. After next weekend I have a month off. I'm setting this jewel up in the bed room, gently covering the E9th with a towel, opening the Doug Jernigan C6th chord manual I just received and jump in with both feet. Any advice on where to start would be greatly appreciated

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Love them Buds

Larry Harlan · Post by **Larry Harlan** » 25 Oct 2003 9:51 am

C6th and it's use in Western Swing (particularly Hank Thompson music), Jazz, Pop, Movie Tunes, etc, was what inspired me to want to take up pedal steel in the first place. I have often thought of it as "the" universal tuning and have always felt it would be what would lead the steel into acceptance in every genre of music out there. I'd like to hear from anyone using C6th in a real regular way in Christian Music, particularly Comtemporary Christian music since that seems to be the current mainstream direction.[This message was edited by Larry Harlan on 25 October 2003 at 10:56 AM.]

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 25 Oct 2003 10:49 am

Hi Ray

I have been working hard on learning the C6th.

Don

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http://www.steelguitar.ca

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 25 Oct 2003 11:43 am

Duane...I highly recomend you get:

1.)the "Real Book" jazz fake book
2.)"Band in a Box" computer program with the "Real Book" jazz fake book installed in it.

Learn to find the melodies then the root notes of the chords of familiar songs. Then try to fill in the blanks...with the correct harmonies. (Maj7, Dom7, alt7's, minors, diminished, half dim., aug, etc etc. Over time you'll be playing chord melodies on C6.

Duane Noom · Post by **Duane Noom** » 25 Oct 2003 1:06 pm

Thanks Rick. I appreciate the help. Now I have a starting point

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Oct 2003 1:12 pm

Rick has it right.
Get BIAB and The Real Book.
Or if you can't find TRB, any good book of jazz standards with songs you know and like.

Not that you should neccesarilly become a jazz player per se, but because there is so much good tried and true musical logic in the old standards.

That with Doug's book should get you going.

Also try to do an analysis of the neck, that will help alot. Put on your tuner and pick throught several of Doug's chords and see how things lay, and you will understand a lot more.

With BiaB you can do a 4 measure chord progression and loop it for 20 times or so. You will find lots of ways around the barn with this.

Also try to use the large grips of C6 and find cool things with them.

If you can find some of Buddy Emmons Tab for C6 grab that without a doubt.

I think a gentlemen can play C6 and KNOWS when to play it and when not to.

It is cool to be a gentleman with the ladies, but on steel I would rather be a regular guy with a big sense of SWING.
All the better to make the ladies dance, rather than cry![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 October 2003 at 02:27 PM.]