No Video Taping

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 7 Jan 2003 1:20 pm

Well...if they were available, who would buy them? Not being a cynic (but merely a realist), I doubt they would ever sell more than a hundred or two, and I feel it just wouldn't be profitable.

I remember talking to a "non-pro" steeler recently about a bunch of recordings that I bought on my trip to Nashburg. (This is a steeler with 2 steels, 2 amps, a 6-space rack w/extension speakers, an expensive pedal, and a even a deluxe steel-chair.)

He asked if I would run him copies of all of them.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 7 Jan 2003 5:25 pm

Since the Steel Guitar Extravaganza show in Atlanta in '97 was the first show that "video taping" was stopped dead in its tracks, there are many things I could tell you. And there is NOT a soul on this earth that knows more than I do about the goings on; before, during and after video taping was stopped. Much of which is just too nasty for this forum. There are indeed some very wicked people on this earth. Some also ARE wolves in sheep's clothing

Some of what several have said on this thread is indeed correct. Some is not. Suffice to say; video taping is not going to happen at most of the shows in the near future; NO matter the cries, reasons and rationale for it.

My dear friend Doug Rolfe (producer of the "Gospel Show" in Indianapolis) does video. I believe my friend in NY (Bob Maickel) has a video screen so the audience can see the players hands (or so I have heard). I have been told there is at least one more show that does this. Outside that, there is no videoing as far as I know.

I will tell you this. The producers of the shows are NOT what stopped it. It was much bigger than that. And it WAS nasty! Nastier than you could ever imagine. The Atlanta show was almost killed (before it even held) because of it. I will leave you to debate it to your heart's content as to where it all got started the whys and wherefores and all the ramifications since.

Finally this. There IS merit to all sides. And all sides make good arguments. But since the players are on one of those sides; they hold the final say. Believe me they do!! And that is as it should be.

God bless you all,

carl

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 7 Jan 2003 6:05 pm

Wouldn't attendance be a factor as well? If an entire show was videoed, even with less than optimal clarity, how many people that knew they could get a copy would do so rather than go to the show themselves? I would certainly be in favor of recording for archives...how many of us would love to hear Jimmy Day again! But the players requests have to be honored, since they are the draw to the shows. I'm sure there are other factors that figure in, but for now, no video seems to be the status quo.

Carl...good to see ya on here, man![This message was edited by Roger Crawford on 07 January 2003 at 06:09 PM.]

Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 7 Jan 2003 6:42 pm

Stephen,

Don't worry! My wife has video taped me so many times that I guarantee that the steel guitar has been documented for all time!!!

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 7 Jan 2003 8:42 pm

I purchased a video tape of Buddy Emmons playing live at the ISGC. I understand other videos will be made available including some of other performers. Was this an exception to the rule?

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kd...and the beat goes on...

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 8 Jan 2003 2:12 am

Last year I attended the first Irish Steel Guitar Festival, Doug Jernigan was there as was Sarah Jory, Jerry Hogan and many others.

A close friend from Wales (Pat Jones) flew over to see the show, she also wanted to tape my segment of it. Prior to the show all were informed that there was an arrangement that the show would be video taped and marketed after the event, and there was plans to make a documentary for television also.This was probably why I went at MY OWN EXPENSE.(The weekend cost Pat and I over £500)

Well at the show there was NO video crew and all the audience were informed that taping was not allowed.
Even though I wanted my performance to be taped by my friend , this was forbiden, why is not for me to say, but although my performance was not very good on the day, I WOULD have liked it "Down for posterity" so to speak.
It was probably my last appearance in Ireland and only those there know anything about it, what a shame for me and the friends of mine who would have like to see it.
BTW there is much more of a story to tell but I'll let others relate it , sometime.
www.waikiki-islanders.com

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Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 8 Jan 2003 3:18 am

The pros be damned if they are truly the ones behind this. If they are not, let those responsible be damned. I don't know who is responsible, but its a shame.

Whatever gain some individuals may reap from this rule will be more than offset by the loss we and future steel players will suffer in perpetuity. How shortsighted and small-minded we humans can be. But, then, that is the lesson of history, is it not?

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable."
-Sydney J. Harris[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 08 January 2003 at 03:50 AM.]

Doug Rolfe · Post by **Doug Rolfe** » 8 Jan 2003 5:44 am

May I say that the vast majority of the pros are not opposed to this, only a very few. Under the right set of circumstances and control most are agreeable to videos. Many of the promoters are simply making a decision to not tape rather than fight it.
Please read my long response to this under the heading RE:

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Doug
Dekley 12U 4k & 7p
2-Nash 400 & Quadraverb

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 8 Jan 2003 5:58 am

Another side to this subject:

Video and audio taping of performances are considered "mechanical" recordings and as such the songwriters thru BMI and ASCAP are due mechanical royalties. The organizations that are recording and distributing these tapes for sale need to be registered with BMI and ASCAP and pay the proper dues. An agent for BMI actually came in to a venue I was performing at and made the owner either register or cease having entertainment! We got kicked out!

I don't know if there is a connection or not to why steel conventions don't videotape but the thought did ocurr to me and I thought I'd mention it.

Terry

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 8 Jan 2003 6:22 am

FWIW, L.T. Zinn's Grand Rapids Show was taped by the local PBS station,two years ago, and segments were aired.

I was at the show, but I'm not in an an area that aired the video.

Many top players were there. I wonder how that got approval for that.

Doug Rolfe · Post by **Doug Rolfe** » 8 Jan 2003 6:48 am

This can long and very detailed, but to say the least, the licensing is an issue "IF" the songs are not public domain. No one can keep you from performing/recording a song that is public domain.
If you market licensed songs, then there is a royalty due, but as far as we have been able to find out, you can record a licensed song for yourself. Piracy is what they are trying to stop which is recording a song then reproducing it for sale.

[This message was edited by Doug Rolfe on 08 January 2003 at 06:50 AM.]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 8 Jan 2003 6:58 am

Terry, your account of being shut out by the "copyright police" is truly chilling. It seems as if we are in an age when the music industry is intent on detroying itself by legal enforcement. Has anybody else seen or experienced anything like that?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 8 Jan 2003 7:21 am

Piracy is what they are trying to stop which is recording a song then reproducing it for sale.

Doug, I've enjoyed the tapes I purchased from you in St. Louis and have a question. When you record the players and sell the tapes do you pay royalties to avoid the piracy issue you mentioned above?

Stephen, I haven't been hassled by the copyright police myself, but at the Trio Club in Mingus, TX there is a sign on the stage that says something like, "Performance of ASCAP songs is strictly prohibited". Obviously the club has been hassled. This club is in a rural country setting and I doubt that any of the musicians, including myself, know if the songs they are performing are ASCAP or not.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 Jan 2003 7:48 am

Stephen,
We seem to have diametrically opposite views on who owns the music. I have never seen anything on a ticket I've purchased that grants me the right to do anything other than listen and enjoy the music -- on that day. I assume that, in that price, any mechanical performance or other licensing fees have been paid to the rightful owners of the music. Any additional copies, videotaped, audiotaped, whatever, are not within the law. It's not always the mega-record-execs who get the money either. Sometimes, royalties on that one tune is all a starving songwriter (some of whom do actually own the rights to their own songs) has to feed his family.

As Carl and others have pointed out, it's a very complex issue. We're dealing with folks who try to eke out a living under very difficult circumstances. I give them a lot of latitude when it comes to their songs and performances. It's their livelihood.

I agree with Pete that things could get out of hand if there were a hundred camcorders and tripods at Scotty's, obscuring the view of those who paid to see the show. And all Scotty needs is another production project when he finally gets to relax after the convention.

And there ARE quite a few videos available. Maybe we should make a list, with sources and prices. There are a lot more instructional videos than performance ones, but I know there's a lot out there that we may not be aware of. Anyone up for a project?????

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 8 Jan 2003 7:56 am

Larry, you are absolutely right. Absolutely, 100%, bona fide, legally right.

And you know what? If this keeps up, the music industry is going to "absolutely, 100%, bona fide, legally right" itself down the tubes.

If every small bar owner, every weekend band, every musician, every single person in the land of the free is going to be held hostage by the lawyers, copyright police, the bean counters of the recording industry, then music has no future in this country.

Sure, all we have to do is comply with the law, right? Not a big deal for big clubs that draw crowds who want to hear the current big hits. But for small venues that hardly make a buck and want to have live music, tough luck is the message, I guess.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 8 Jan 2003 8:19 am

This topic comes up here often it’s never definitively explained. It's always shrouded in vagueness and mystery.

I don't understand any of what's involved here and I'm wondering if other live performances have the same restrictions. This can't be unique to steel shows.

A professionally produced video of Scotty's would be of great value to me. However, I wouldn't pay you 15 cents for most home videos of such events. So I think the piracy issue is blown out of proportion. How effective is a handheld camcorder going to capture the audio?

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HagFan

[This message was edited by Ron Page on 08 January 2003 at 08:20 AM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 8 Jan 2003 9:17 am

WEll if I ever get to play a Steel guitar show.....you can Video tape the he!! outta me....you have my permission.
I you wanna sell it> whatever....that's cool by me. If I have some blooppers....so be it; it's all fun.....and if a bunch of people get to be exposed to more steel playing that wouldn't normally get to see it......That is my goal; and "It's ON the House".
Ricky

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 8 Jan 2003 9:28 am

Ricky, I agree with you completely. But how would you feel if somebody told the audience that they aren't allowed to tape you even if you say ok? I can't imagine that there are many players who would really mind, so I'm still baffled as to where and how this whole thing started.

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 8 Jan 2003 9:45 am

This can't be unique to steel shows

It's not.....

I've been to "Branson" several times,"Dollywood" and a lot of other places where Music is performed. Almost word for word, They all say; Please take as many still pictures you wish,but video-tapeing the performance is prohibited. A few times, I have had to leave my cam-corder with the management(or not get into the venue).

Production type videos are just that !! All the camera shots and the audio is tightly controlled for highest quality. If there is possibly 100 to 200 patrons in the audiunce(sp) trying to video-tape a show, You can bet your bottom dollar that the piece of poorly shot,bad audio,tape is and will be the one that gets passed around.

I don't think it's the quality of the performance or the artist wishing to maxamize the dollar thing. While a top-notch show is super to a live crowd, what the cam-corder way back in the 23rd row sees and hears is a act badly executed due to it being shot from behind someone's head,a cowboy hat,the kid next to you squaling because he needs a nap.

This is the kind of stuff that you and I wouldn't want to be circulated around. (and I ain't a real player by any means.)

I had a front-man one time that took a mini-cassette to a concert,keep it in his shirt pocket,under the sports-coat he was wearing, for the performance. He later gives me the dinky little tape cartrige and says "Take this and learn the Steel parts". All I heard was him breathing and cussing cause he couldn't hear the pick of the week "SuperStar" who was singing off key,raiseing hell with the sound techs because his electrified guitar was squealing when he turned it up to showboat his out of tune pickin'.

Now, thats why "No video cameras are allowed" is strickly enforced by most places.
[This message was edited by Bill Crook on 08 January 2003 at 09:48 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Crook on 10 January 2003 at 02:41 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Jan 2003 10:23 am

"A professionally produced video of Scotty's would be of great value to me."

IMO, THE most profound statement in this thread. For it is here that the "hidden" shroud lies. While some will sit and watch 1960's generation, "water color" type smeared image videos, with a horrible sound mix, I know of NO top player that is willing to let his perfomance (under this scenario) go around the world for all to "see".

For a player to spend decades in perfecting his sound and playing wizardy; using the latest and best equipment available; to have to contend with amateur videoing and "good ole boy" audioing; is a contradiction in and of, itself.

Now, if you will, couple this with the costs of doing it correctly. The closest I have ever seen this done is what my dear Brother (in Christ) Doug Rolfe did/does.

But at a show like Scotty's, this would result in a staggering cost to Scotty, with NO way of him ever recouping this cost. Let alone make a profit as EVERY business man is entitled to make. There are simply NOT enough "buyers" out there to even come close to paying the kind of professional crews it would take to tape, edit, distribute and market a quality video with a matching quality sound.

In fact, it IS the sound that has been soooooo desecrated in the past; that has been sooooo objectionalbe to most of the players. To properly mix the sound (for tape), it requires a separate mixing board in a sound proof room with a matching video feed that shows the "TV studio type audio professional" sound man WHO is playing, with the same info the vidio director has available to him. This requires great talent, talented people and years of TV studio type of experience to pull off. It IS one of the most difficult feats EVER in the realm of video taping.

Much coordinating between many talented and dexterious people is required for this to end up satisifying the top players. And I am with them 1000% on this. After all it is the "sound" that far and away is soo much a part of their careers. And it is the sound which has NOT been anywhere near the level of quality that most players insist upon on a given video tape.

When a PF or BE, et al, is playing, any reproduction of that perfomance MUST be as good as the latest state of the art (equipment) and talents (crew) is available.

You say, "well I don't care if they just stick a camera up in the air and leave it on wide angle, it is better than nothing". Well, hear me well beloved, you are not the one being taped! And regardless of the rhetoric, it is the players who have the final say. As it should be.

I just wish to God in heaven they had NOT used me as a whipping boy to pull off and "broadcast" plus malicious gossip behind the scenes; their vengeance concerning the subject. I tried to please all and became the one who got hurt. But God KNOWS what happened. So does my wife! Whe was right there answering the non-stop phone calls, USING the SGE show to vent their spleen; EVEN if it meant the show was destroyed.

But I still agree with their reasons, albeit the methods were satan driven if satan ever did anything. That you can take to the bank.

A top pro player deserves the right to insist on what level of quality his perfomance is taped. And ANY top player I have ever talked to has told me that they are NOT satisfied by far, with what they have seen. Again Doug Rolfe's setup is in a different setting and much shorter (timewise)and smaller (hall) scenario.

I will leave you with this. IF, I was a rich man, I Would pay (with the players approval) to have Scotty's show professionally taped, edited (with the players approval), and made available for sale. I estimate this cost to be NO less that 60,000 dollars! If you think I am exaggerating, you should have been with me the many hours I explored this avenue talking to professional videographers in the greater Atlanta area; before I was Forced> to not have ANY videoing of the Steel Guitar Extravaganza show.

You are talking about 37 hours of raw video and sound, to be edited down to a 2 hour video of the highest quality. Folks, I have to tell you this is a monumental task. As several firms expressed to me,

"I have never heard of such an undertaking. Since you insist on taping every player's entire set, the editing costs alone would break the bank!" Or words to that affect.

My response then and now was/is,

"Just what part of whose set do you suggest I leave out?"

I will leave the answer to that question to a much smarter person than me. If you are that person, I will give YOU the stone to throw first. And may God be with you.

What hath "man" wrought?

carl

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 8 Jan 2003 10:33 am

In all of the above, I have yet to see a clear statement of why there is a different policy for audiotaping vs videotaping.

Legal? Nope. There are still royalty issues, either way, if the music is not either public-domain or original.

Poor quality of recording? Nope. You can bring in a real cheapo, lousy tape recorder into any steel show and make the worst recording ever heard. That's permitted. But you can't try to make a lousy videotape of the same show.

So could someone (perhaps Carl Dixon?) please explain to me why there's so much more fuss about video, but audio is a free-for-all?? I still don't get it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 8 Jan 2003 10:39 am

well, carl, that seems to sum it up pretty well. I would just add this final (and I hope it is final) remark.

I understand why players would not like to have poor or average quality videos of their playing. At the same time, the protection of their vanity and egos comes at a price, which is the loss of an important historical record of the development of steel guitar music for the future as well as the lack of education and entertainment we could gain today.

I am glad to know that at least Scotty has his own cache of recordings that I hope will not be lost to the ravages of time.

Well, there you have it. Not a pretty picture.

ps. I had to edit this post to add the following:

WHAT JIM SAID![This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 08 January 2003 at 10:40 AM.]

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 8 Jan 2003 11:12 am

The "quality" aspects of the audio/video argument seems to fall apart as what was the "best" in 1950 is not the "best" in 2003, ..and "best" in 2003 will not be "best" in 2020, ..so time eliminates that argument. Present "super produced" video and audio are purchased and used on small cheap speaker and screen equiped home/portable gear; Why should not the "artist" insist that his tapes etc. not be sold to those that will play them on that type of gear? That records/CDs/tapes not be broadcast as they will be listened to on car radios complete with road noise? Or in a home with the "squaling kid".

Companies are interested in control and the associated $. Certain individual performers sometimes just like to flex their muscles, ..type A people do type A things.

Some performers contracts contain clauses that prohibit them from having their name involved with activities not sanctioned (= controlled or approved) by the contractor. I believe that one good example of this is Les Paul. He was part of the "Jazz At The Philharmonic #8" recordings. If I remember correctly he was billed on the record as Paul Lester, ..someone check that.

When the number of video tapers on the floor get in the way of the audience, then restrict them to some particular area if they still want to video tape the happening. As it is there are often a number of folk with still cameras blocking the view, and a lot of jabber going on in the audience.

No easy answer(s), just local preference.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Jan 2003 11:35 am

So could someone (perhaps Carl Dixon?) please explain to me why there's so much more fuss about video, but audio is a free-for-all?? I still don't get it"

Jim, Excellent question. One I have been asked many times and one I have pondered for many years!

I do NOT know if there is an answer that will satisfy most of those (including yourself) who have asked it.

But after much thought, I believe it might have something to do with the glamour of video over audio; EVEN though it is the sound the top players are most concerned about.

If most people saw an audio tape AND a video tape of Scotty's convention on sale, MOST people IMO, would buy the video many times over those that settled for the audio. This would be true I believe if the video was 3 times the cost of the same audio version.

It is like the days (I remember vividly) when every "tavern" in the US, had a lone 5" RCA B & W TV and the crowds would spill out into the street to see "them movun pitchers!!" Yet everyone of those people in all likelyhood had a radio at home!!!

There is something about video that conjurs up much debate and verbal diahhrea about videoing that NO body seems to care abut when it comes to audioing.

But I will tell you this. Your argument IS very sound (no pun intended

) How any player could object to a video camera "EVEN being in the room", and then not care a teetinkers about the many ppl auding 'his' performance; some using the most "satan-awfu" manaural recorders available, shall forever remain a mystery to me. Especially when it is the sound they are mostly concerned about; according to them.

carl
[This message was edited by C Dixon on 08 January 2003 at 11:35 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 08 January 2003 at 11:37 AM.]

Tom Hodgin · Post by **Tom Hodgin** » 8 Jan 2003 11:36 am

Now see what you guys have done..You have got old C DIXON so upset he has gone to quoting the Bible..."What hath man wrought"..?? Well C I don't know "what hath man wrought"?, but I do know this is all about money...if they could make a dollar they would...rights or no rights..all thoses instructional steel tapes we all have, did they pay for the rights to record the songs on the tapes we bought..?? Let me say this to all the seminar producers and "Big time players", We, your supporting cast, spend a lot on money applauding your efforts, from buying your tapes, equipment, and traveling to expensive seminars, etc.....I suggest to you, that you give us what we want..we don't mind paying for it..simple economics..supply and demand..

just funning with ya CD....tom