The Battle of the Pans

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 2 Mar 2005 12:42 pm

I gotta be the dumbest $@&% around for doin' this ... but ...

I can't figure out any other way to answer all the emails asking about our various pickups ... and my cast steels.

Last nite ... I figured I'd run a test for myself ... comparing and contrasting these rascals.

Same exact amp and settings ... same "flattie" bar ... same BIAB backup (acoustic piano only) ...

All volume pots (1 meg audio taper) wide open ...

Only one steel (Sierra) has a tone control ... 1 meg pot / 0.022 mfd cap ... it's wide open.

No volume pedal ...

All steels are recorded on a frypan stand ...

Basically ... I unplugged from one steel ... plugged into the next ... blah, blah, blah

4 songs ... 1 take ...

No reverb, effects, editing or processing (compression, normalization, EQ, etc) ...

Just a dry signal comparison ...

I apologize for the crappy playin' ... I would love to take a few days and do these over and over ... and pick the best versions ... but I don't have that kinda time anymore ...

Enough excuses ...

First up ... an All Original Rickenbacker 1937 A25 (long scale frypan). Magnets fully charged ... original bobbin.

I don't have a finer sounding vintage steel guitar than this one.

Kilima Waltz

Next up ... my Dustpan with a neodymium based H-Shoe pickup ... Lollar pole piece bobbin.

Across the Sea

Next ... my prototype Dustpan ... with a neodymium based MRI magnet assembly ... featuring a Lollar Pole Piece-less bobbin ...

Wailana (Drowsy Waters)

Last ... a Sierra Laptop 8 ... with a neodymium based MRI (Thin Line) magnet assembly ... Lollar pole piece bobbin.

Akaka Falls

Again ... sorry about the bad timing, bad intonation, scratchy bar sounds and crappy recording techniques.

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Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 02 March 2005 at 01:06 PM.]

Bob Tuttle · Post by **Bob Tuttle** » 2 Mar 2005 1:13 pm

Very nice sound clips Rick. To my ears, the Dustpan/MRI (number three) stands head and shoulders above the other three. What a magnificent tone. Congratulations! By Jove, I think you've got it.

I'm in the process of building a solid Honduran mahogany eight string lap steel with the approximate dimensions of the Rick bakelite. I wonder how that pickup would sound on it.

Joseph De Feo · Post by **Joseph De Feo** » 2 Mar 2005 1:18 pm

Thanks Rick

It's a big help to be able to do an A/B.
The Sierra just shimmers!

But hey

Look's like someones got some
amp GAS

[This message was edited by Joseph De Feo on 02 March 2005 at 01:20 PM.][This message was edited by Joseph De Feo on 02 March 2005 at 01:22 PM.]

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 2 Mar 2005 1:32 pm

I'm betting the Sierra would be the overall winner if a full range audio test was done. It sounded like it had a fuller/deeper/natural tone, with much less of the pan's high end shimmer, but still enuf for the effect.

Rick, how much/what kind of sonic differences from the 1st replacement shoe in the Sierra and the new MRI to your ears?

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 2 Mar 2005 1:34 pm

though I am a bit influenced by owning one, I am also of the opinion that the Sierra is mighty mighty. I also am partial to the 3rd frypan, as well- very sweet to the ear and more fluid sounding. Can't wait to convert my Sierra!

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 2 Mar 2005 2:01 pm

Thanks y'all ... sounds like I mighta just put my "Pan Business" ... outta business ... ha, ha

Ron ... my website (and HSGA' recording page) ... has a much better recording ... of that Sierra with that same bobbin ... with a set of my original cryo hardened steel horseshoe magnets.

Still no effects or processing ... but ... recorded when I usta practice more ...

"Indian Love Call" ....

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Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 2 Mar 2005 2:20 pm

Oh, don't give up the frying pans; I am saving up for one when you get into production on them. I gave up on finding a Sho-Bud one and the ricky's are WAY outta my league.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 2 Mar 2005 2:31 pm

sounds like I mighta just put my "Pan Business" ... outta business

Them's fightin' words ... Dad

PS: Indian Love Call was recorded thru a 70's Fender Twin ...

Joel Newman · Post by **Joel Newman** » 2 Mar 2005 2:41 pm

Wow!! Bravo Rick, what a great service and solid you just did me . . .I really like the second one,(Dustpan with a neodymium based H-Shoe pickup), there seemed to be a more even/buttery tone bettween the lows and the highs. I wonder how much of the guit. I'm hearing as opposed to the pick up. Any hoo that's proly the one I want for my ric when I get the bucks . . .Thanks again. You Rock!!!

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 2 Mar 2005 5:23 pm

I wonder how much of the guit. I'm hearing as opposed to the pick up

They are strange birds ... so many variations ... just in the casting process alone.

I've learned that the "pouring temperature" and the solidification rate ... plays a big role in crystal lattice formation.

The temperature of the sand ... how fast I dig them out ... how thick they are ... all factors.

Each one is unique ... thats for sure.

I will probably send one down to be heat treated ... just to see how that effects the tone ... A356 responds well to heat treating.

I will have at least 2 of the next 5 anodized ... we'll see how that works out.

Its fun ... anyway ...

Oh ... my girls got upset that Dusty's picture was here ... showin' off his first haircut

So ...

Ellie and Emmie say "Howdy" to Bobby I., Howard R. and Mike N.

Ellie is doin' much better now ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 02 March 2005 at 05:26 PM.]

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 2 Mar 2005 6:21 pm

Rick, #3 gets my vote. Bright, but not shrill.

The Sierra is a little fatter, but the prototype Dustpan rules imo . .

RA

Terry Farmer · Post by **Terry Farmer** » 2 Mar 2005 7:34 pm

I'm partial to #3. Now I understand the "crystal" tone you've been seeking. I like it!

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 2 Mar 2005 10:11 pm

Rick, I'm liking number three. Also, number 4, but 3's my fave. Those two seemed to have the most sustain. Number three had a great vocal quality to the tone.

BTW, i've done this sort of testing a lot. The most scientific way i found was to play the same exact song on each instrument. That removes a lot of variables. I would do this twice, playing two songs, recording the first 16 bars of each. One song would be a ballad with lots of long tones and other a medium fast tune. It's always surprising to listen back. The results are often surprising.

Another interesting test, is to record various guitars with a CD playing in the background. Use the same song each time and mix the guitar low - as if it was part of the rhythm section. You'll get a better idea of how the sound of each guitar will be when performing with a band.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 3 Mar 2005 5:25 am

Seems like Lollar's string thru ... "Pole Piece-less" Bobbin has a few fans ...

When he first sent it down to me ... and I got it installed ...

I went over to the forum where he hangs at ... a pickup makers forum ... and posted a thread ..

"Lollar just Raised the Bar - Bigtime" ... my one and only post over there ...

It has the lowest "output" of them all ... but has the strongest magnetic field (by far) ... and the most DC resistance to the coil ... 12 K ohms I think.

His pole piece bobbins are all in the 6K ohms range.

I grow weary of all the pole piece height adjustments ... 1 mm makes such a difference ...

With that rascal ... center the strings in the orifice ... and you're done ... perfect balance, etc.

In my opinion ... that was the one of the greatest "innovations" ... in guitar history ... Leo Fender at his finest.

Anyway, I noticed that I chopped off a whole "key change" on the sample of the Dustpan/H-shoe (# 2) ... when I was splicing out the songs from the mother track.

I just turn on the 'puter ... flip on record and stop when the practice session is over.

I usually just play it back for myself the next morning ... cringe ... and hit delete.

To post ... I chopped it into seperate songs .. and inadvertently "parted The Sea" ...

Very Old Testament of me ...

So if you care to listen ... #2 is full length now.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 03 March 2005 at 05:48 AM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 3 Mar 2005 6:18 am

from Dallas

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 3 Mar 2005 9:01 am

Rick, thanks so much for doing this. It's a unique opportunity. I agree that doing the SAME song helps with comparisons ... maybe Flight of the Bumble Bee, flat-bar style.

the one I'm dying to hear is the sound of the 25" Dustpan. Oh well, back to listening to the Ventures Live in Japan 1965. Tone schmone, just loud and twangy!

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 3 Mar 2005 10:37 am

I agree with y'all ...

But talk about "torture" ... listening to me play one song over and over ...

I'm quite sure that would violate the Geneva Convention ...

Shoot ... the Chinese Water Torture would be like a spring day On the Beach at Waikiki ... compared to that

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 03 March 2005 at 10:38 AM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 4 Mar 2005 9:03 am

OK ... before this thread slips into oblivion (were it belongs) ... I'll give you my honest opinions.

For Playability ... bringing out the best in me ...

The A25 ... that super long scale ... just seems so natural.

Because of the extreme distances from fret to fret ... it's very hard too "over-run" my vibrato ... especially above the 12th fret.

That "sweet spot" note is so much easier to find ...

The 24.25" scale of the Sierra is kinda like that too, just not as noticable ...

But I really like looking down and seeing "just strings" ...

The extra width of the Sierra, bakelites, console type steels ... hard to describe ... kinda like too much peripheral distraction.

But with the pans ... it's like its just me and the strings ...

For the "Clone sound" of a Ricky ...

I gotta go with my Dustpan w/ H-shoe. I have a feeling that when I start putting these "Thin Line" MRI's on them with a Lollar pole piece bobbin ... they will really "shine" ... more comments about that below.

For the sound "I want" ...

The Dustpan/MRI with Lollars "Pole Piece-less" bobbin. It gives me what I have in my mind as "my sound".

The A25 and Sierra are richer and fuller ... but I personally like the more crystalline tone found in the Dustpans.

As far as "Horseshoe" vs "MRI" ... with a standard pole piece bobbin.

Hands down ... the MRI ... no, not because I invented it ..

I've had that 8 string Lollar pole piece bobbin for a couple years now and have used it with the Sierra in all my "experiments".

That bobbin ... with Prewar Ricky 1.5"ers ... postwar Ricky 1.25"ers ... my hardened steel ones ... and my neodymium H-Shoes ...

Always had a great tone ... but even with an 850 gauss set of H-Shoes ... the output was always lower than my Rickys or Dustpans ...

My other Lollar custom bobbins output are greater than this particular one ... but this particular one is "sweet as pie".

Now that I have this MRI on there ... its putting out the same tone it always did ... with an output that is high as the rest ...

Neodymium magnets are real tricky to work with ... they don't behave like steel, alnico and ferrite (ceramic) magnets ...

They are very strong .. yet "stingy" with their flux ... they don't "leak".

The lines of force leave one pole and travel back to the other pole ... in a very tight array.

Getting them to "allow" their lines of force to "spread out" ... to encompass the coil ... was a tough job ... but I think I figured out the best way now.

So I will be recommending that my customers opt for the MRI magnet assembly ...

Nothing to do with 'legal issues" ... just function.

If they want the "look" of a horseshoe ... I'll pain a stripe down the middle ... ala "Pepe Le Pew" ...

An MRI ... paired with either a standard pole piece bobbin for a more Ricky sounding, solid, driving sound ...

Or ...

Paired with Lollars "Pole Piece-less" bobbin ... for a more "Ethereal" sound.

For me ... I'll be haulin' around my new "Long Pan" equipped with an MRI/Pole Piece-less bobbin ...

Possibly made outta "Bronze" ...

Thanks y'all ... for listenin', your comments ... and for letting me babble on so ....

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Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 04 March 2005 at 09:43 AM.]

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 4 Mar 2005 9:14 am

Decisions, decisions, I can't make up my mind ok, I'll take one of each. Rick they all sound too sweet to me I really can't make up my mind which one I like the best. I guess it's easier if you've got er in your lap huh? nice job!

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Fender Stringmaster T8, Carter D-10, 54' Fender Champion, two Oahu laps, two National laps, and two Resonators

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 4 Mar 2005 11:19 am

So Rick…

Are you going to be making the MRI pickups available? Inquiring minds want to know.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 4 Mar 2005 12:33 pm

They are available ...

I just make the magnet assemblies ... Jason Lollar "Markets" them outta his shop ... as he does with all my stuff.

He has a list goin' now for the "Pole Piece-less" bobbins ...

He's putting together a "larger version" of them for Sierras and 10 stringers too... and he's sending the prototype down soon ... so I can build the magnet assembly for it.

Basically he takes the orders ... gets them on his dockett ... tells me what to make and how many ...

I do them up ... and send them to Seattle ... where he installs the bobbin, mounts them, etc ... and ships them out.

He recently got some high tech machinery ... so he will be able to whip up these custom orders ... easier.

These kinda steel pickups are just a "fun" side line for him ... at least I think he enjoys them ...

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 4 Mar 2005 1:00 pm

Hmmmm when I talked to Jason he said he was sending the Sierra bobbins to you and I'd have to talk to you to get one... Either way I want on the list... my Sierra needs that kinda transplant!

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 4 Mar 2005 1:49 pm

Kevin ... I'm sure he was talking about this "prototype" bobbin for the Sierra ... that he is sending down.

I don't think he's even cut the flatwork for it yet.

Basically we got the "original" one all done ... so there is no need to send stuff back and forth ...

He tells me what to make and I send it up ...

The thing with the MRIs ... is the cavity I build into it ... has to fit the exact dimensions of the bobbin.

Then it just slides in ... is set ... and they're good to go.

When we were approached to do 5 of these for Sierras ... he had to come up with a new "floor plan" ...

He's constructing that prototype ... he will ship it to me ... I will buld an MRI around it ... mount it on mine ... and test it.

Once I have the exact dimensions ... I can then churn them out ... without ever seeing the bobbin that will go into it.

I just get so excited sometimes ... I throw up pictures and stuff here on the forum ... literally the day or so after I do something I think is cool (new magnets, cast bronze pans, etc) ...

Kinda like a "virtual" NAMM show ...