Hawaiian Steel Vol 3 - Byrd's Nest

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 17 Jan 2005 11:20 pm

Well, I listened to those cuts and frankly, I cannot understand what the commotion is all about. WAVE was great as was HOE HOE and the rest of the tunes. I had a problem with WATCH WHAT HAPPENS until I realized it was a long intro into the actual melody. The steel playing throughout is superb...

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 18 Jan 2005 2:55 am

Thanks for your opinion George... I respect it and take on board the fact that you accept the versions as OK...But the NOTES of Wave are wrong.. Still if you're happy with it so be it..

One more thing ...
PLEASE
Just tell me what you think of the change made to the melody in Hano Hano... and I'll shut up.. Baz

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 18 Jan 2005 4:06 pm

Okay, my turn.

I think Baz has a very Hawaiian perspective on melodies.

I can't speak for all Hawaiian musicians, but as far as my generation's concerned... we play the melody as it was written or sung by the composer out of respect for that composer. As such, you find people of my age going to great lengths to research the original melodies of songs. This includes meeting the composer (if the composer is dead, meeting his or her kin), finding the earliest known recordings, (hopefully of the composer), and visiting with respected authorities on the subject.

To "jazz it up" the first time around is a slap in the face to the composer...it also creates confusion as to what the original melody is. Sure, do some improv in subsequent verses, but it's imperative that you play it the way it was intended the first time around. That's the general mindset.

I think it's important to keep in mind that Hawaiian music does not exist for itself. Melodies are an important part of it, but equally important is the poetry and the dance. That is what the music exists for. Hawaiian musicians of my age don't play Hawaiian music just for the sake of making music... we play it as a matter of cultural preservation. Many aspects of the culture have withered--what's left are the songs.

This is why some Hawaiians have a problem with the way Jerry Byrd and some others play Hawaiian tunes... these steelers play them as if they haven't a clue as what the words are. I hate to pick on JB but his intro to "Na Ka Pueo" backing Bill Aliiloa Lincoln is a classic example of a melody played with no respect to lyrics or phrasing. [This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 19 January 2005 at 11:32 AM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 18 Jan 2005 4:08 pm

The Correct melody of Wave...
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets/multimedia/wave.mp3.m4a

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 18 Jan 2005 4:21 pm

The future of Hawaiian Guitar in the Islands is in the hands of the young people like Jeff.. Thank God that they've not been influenced too much by present trends and retain the musical integrity of their predecessors...One afternoon with Jeff was enought to convince myself and Pat that the torch left by Jules, Barney, Billy and others, was in solid hands..and burning brightly..
Basil

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 18 Jan 2005 6:21 pm

Baz,
I can't play that file you posted. What is the format? It has an m4a as an extension? What's that? I tried renaming it to wave.mp3 and still no go.

Also, what's going on with the Waikiki Islanders website. I can't get there anymore. Has the URL changed?

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 18 January 2005 at 06:36 PM.]

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 18 Jan 2005 7:02 pm

You have to be careful about what you consider “the right way to play the tune” or basing the truth on the original recordings.

Have you heard about the Robert Johnson controversy? I’m referring to Robert Johnson the great Mississippi delta blues singer of the 1930’s.

For years people have been listening to and dissecting the 29 or so cuts that Johnson made. They wondered how he got that high ethereal quality to his voice and how the hell did he get those guitar licks in the key of B. Did he use a capo? Perhaps, or did he do it with just his hands? Those 29 cuts became the bible on how to play the blues. Guitarists throughout years have twisted their knuckles left and right and have torn many a tonsil to get that “authentic Robert Johnson sound and feel”.

Well… recently using modern technology they slowed down the recordings and guess what they found? He was playing in E position all along! And he sounded like a typical delta blues singer with a pretty normal vocal range.

His guitar playing... he was playing simple blues licks in E position, nothing special (we all know those licks, they’re easy). They're also easier to play when you slow them down.

Mystery solved, it was a case of 1930’s technology screwing up by recording and pressing the records at the wrong speed.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 18 January 2005 at 07:45 PM.]

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 18 Jan 2005 7:40 pm

Listen:

Here is Robert Johnson doing the "original, correct, authentic" recording of his "Kind Hearted Woman Blues"

The original "correct" version in "B".
Kind Hearted Women Blues (in B - original recording)

Here it is knocked down to the key of G and slowed down.
Kind Hearted Women Blues (in G)

Much more believable eh?

Blues scholars are on both sides of the fence on this one.

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 18 January 2005 at 07:48 PM.]

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 18 Jan 2005 7:46 pm

I love Hawaiian music too much to ever really want to play it. I'm afraid that my loose interpretative style would be considered disrespectful. So to all of you who ever hear me play any traditional Hawaiian songs, you have my apologies in advance.

Honestly, there is so much more to it, like Jeff said. It's really beautiful and very important. I'm dismayed that even the great tradition of American popular song has decayed to such a great extent. Once it's gone....

I've often wondered what the Hawaiian players thought of players who 'borrowed' stuff but didn't stay true to the style. I can honestly say that even though the music I'm playing is based more on jazz and popular American song, I still have the masters (like Andy Iona, Dick McIntire, Sol Hoopii and Bobby Nichols, et al) in my mind while I'm playing, even though I'm seeking my own path.

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www.mikeneer.com

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 18 Jan 2005 8:55 pm

BAZ..."WAVE" did not come up... (?)

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 19 Jan 2005 2:10 am

Try this
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets/multimedia/mp3/bazjazzmp3/waveclip.mp3 [This message was edited by basilh on 19 January 2005 at 04:49 AM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 19 Jan 2005 5:49 am

There's more jazz orientated playing here... http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets/multimedia/mp3/bazjazzmp3/?
Baz

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 19 Jan 2005 12:45 pm

Gerald.. The one in "G" is obviously the correct version...
An interesting scenario...

Thanks for bringing it to our attention..

Makes you wonder about the 1937 electric recording of 12th St. Rag !!
(Only joking...BUT it does throw a different light on all of the pre-war recordings re key, tempo etc?)
Baz
[This message was edited by basilh on 19 January 2005 at 12:46 PM.]

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 19 Jan 2005 1:24 pm

Look at many of the old silent movies. Everyone's movement is quick and jerky.

Here's a story:
A few years ago I played at an outdoor music festival. While there I met some younger musicians who saw my band perform at this same festival three years prior. These kids learned a song we played at that old show from a tape they made of our performance.

They played their version of the tune for me.

They succeeded in duplicating our arrangement. They even learned the wrong chord we played in the chorus of the tune!

This is known as the 'Folk Process' it's been going on since the beginning of time.

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 19 January 2005 at 01:33 PM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 21 Jan 2005 2:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>They even learned the wrong chord we played in the chorus of the tune!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you agree there's such a thing as a "Wrong Chord" ... then why not "Wrong Note" ?
(Stir Stir Stir)
Baz

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 21 Jan 2005 6:33 am

So what should we do with Greg, Alan, Casey and Paul... drag them out of their homes and tar and feather them for changing a chord? Assemble a Senate sub-comittee to investigate alleged note-fixing? That wouldn't work, Alan's father is the Senator from Hawaii.

Come on Baz... lighten up. We all interpret songs our own way. Listen to your own version of 'Hula Blues' on the HSGA website. Your intro is very non-traditional. I didn't hear Sol Hoopii do it that way...(and as much as I love Sol's playing and wish I could do 2% of what he did, who says he did it "right"?).

Your rendition came from your musical bag of tricks, your life experience and soul. You added to the Folk Process.

BTW - I like your version of Hula Blues eventhough you play the intro wrong .

(stir stir stir)[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 21 January 2005 at 08:46 AM.]

Bob Stone · Post by **Bob Stone** » 21 Jan 2005 6:52 am

Hi,

I just wanted to second Jeff's statement about paying attention to the poetry and dance. In my opinion, and from experience with other ethnic musics, knowledge of language, poetry and dance are very important if you want to get deep into the heart of the music and get it "right" (oops, more fuel for debate).

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 21 Jan 2005 8:43 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
deep into the heart of the music
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, do we start the following debate?

Can a Hoale really play Hawaiian music?

Can a white person really play the Blues?

Can a non-Jew really play Klezmer?

Can you really play Sacred Steel without believing in Jesus as your savior?

Must one have the correct life experiences and the correct DNA in order to play ethnic music "right"?

Or must one only need to study and respect the culture?

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 21 Jan 2005 11:47 am

I think the key is to be mindful of these things.

There will always be exceptions to rules.
[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 21 January 2005 at 12:20 PM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 22 Jan 2005 3:05 am

I found this enlightening...
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets/multimedia/mp3/Jonathan%20And%20Darlene's%20Greatest%20Hits/01%20I%20Love%20Paris.mp3

Baz!!!

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 22 Jan 2005 6:49 am

I Love Paris...

Either she is the world's worst singer or the most technically proficient vocalist I have ever heard! She consistently sings 1/2 step flat and she gives it her all! What control!

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 22 January 2005 at 06:49 AM.]

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 22 Jan 2005 12:30 pm

Jo Stafford and Paul Weston ("Darlene" and "Jonathon") were absolutely BRILLIANT in the production of this crazy recording! I'm sure everyone broke down in hilarity when it, (and the follow-up recording), were made. Can you just imagine the concentration Jo had to do to sing a 1/4 pitch out of tune and Paul who was a great pianist playing 5 beats and often up to 7 beats to a measure ?
This is a MUSICIAN'S recording as, believe it or not, I have played it for non-musicians and received no startling comments.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 22 Jan 2005 1:07 pm

Joe Stafford.. one of the gifted few with perfect pitch...just having fun...
the rest of their "Greatest hits" album is at
www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets/multimedia/mp3/Jonathan%20And%20Darlene's%20Greatest%20Hits/

Baz[This message was edited by basilh on 23 January 2005 at 08:29 AM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 22 Jan 2005 2:23 pm

Jo Stafford's name deserves to be MUCH better known. She was a wonderful singer in her prime with beautiful feel for melody and impeccable pitch. She and Paul Weston (who arranged many of her records) used to do the Jonathan & Darlene schtick at parties where it was so popular it turned into a series of hilarious LPs. You have to be very, very good to be THAT bad! Check out Jo's American Folk Songs which is now on CD .... one of my all-time favorite records. Jo's version of Shenandoah will bring tears to your eyes.[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 22 January 2005 at 06:25 PM.]

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 22 Jan 2005 3:37 pm

Right on, Andy... Jo Stafford is one of the very best in the biz. As you mentioned, she would have to be great to sound that bad. Whenever I have musicians over for the evening I dig out those old lp's and man, they MAKE the evening. Those of you on the FORUM who have never heard "Darlene and Jonathon Edwards" owe it to yourselves to find these great lp's and enjoy some real musical fun !

(Corrected due to error)[This message was edited by George Keoki Lake on 11 February 2005 at 07:52 AM.]