Fender Deluxe Reverb for PSG

Mike Phillips · Post by **Mike Phillips** » 13 Nov 2006 1:03 pm

i know it's probably been gone over many times, but i figured i'd troll for some fresh opinions.

i'm curious about a deluxe reverb for PSG live applications. the places i play, i don't need a ton of volume. and i sometimes double on tele. i don't really love the peavey 112 for tele, and my old blackface princeton reverb with a 12" gets dirty a little too quick.

i like the size of the deluxe reverb, and a reissue would take the worry out of bringing it to gigs and stuff. i'd also like to hear about silverfaces, as they are still sometimes found within financial reach.

i'd love to hear opinions on deluxe reverbs of all stripes: silverfaces, reissues, replacement speakers and mods that make them more steel-friendly, etc...

anyone with experiences with these things, lemme know what you have found out.

i thank you all in advance.

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 13 Nov 2006 1:18 pm

I've had great success with using a SF Deluxe Reverb with a JBL D120 speaker. I've used it for small rooms with PSG and it was plenty of power plus tone to the bone! I've also used it on a huge stage and put a mic on it and it seemed to work fine for the room but not enough for me on stage. Guess I could have asked for more in the monitor.

I believe the JBL speaker makes it usable for me to use with PSG.

Dave Z[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 13 November 2006 at 01:19 PM.][This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 13 November 2006 at 01:37 PM.]

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 13 Nov 2006 1:33 pm

Mike--indeed the subject has been covered numerous times. I laid out of the last 7 so I jump in on this one to repeat what I've said previously---my SFDR sounds like heaven. But more than once it fell well short of giving me what I needed in headroom. So you've got to be selective on where you use it. Even mic'd, unless you are confident that you can get excellent monitoring, it is risky. Unless you don't mind a bunch of grind. OTOH, for coffeehouse type gigs, it has more than enough clean volume and is a joy to use. I've altered mine---I put a Weber Cali speaker in it and I use 6L6 tubes and a copper cap solid state rectifier. All of this increases the headroom. Some people will say that a DR isn't a DR without 6V6's. All I can say is---it sounds like heaven. My ears will trump anybody's orthodoxy arguments any day (or, to put it another way--I could care less what somebody else thinks about what I use in my amp).
I've got a recording session this weekend and I'm back and forth as to whether to use the DR or the Steel King. I'll probably go with the FSK just because it's what I've been using most regularly lately. But that DR......

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 13 Nov 2006 1:55 pm

Mike, Brad Sarno has used one with some success, but his is modded to clean it up and give it more headroom. I have used mine a couple times, but it just doesn't have any clean volume, my NV 112 just blows it away. You can clean up the Deluxe with a different speaker and tubes, but then you lose some of the character that makes it grat for guitar. I have decided to just bring both amps, and to stop trying to have them do things they weren't really made to do. JP

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 13 Nov 2006 5:21 pm

I use a 66 DR with a jbl D120. I modded it so reverb goes to both channels. This way i can run my tele and pedals into vibrato side and have some bite and EQ. The steel goes into normal channel with it's own bite and EQ. WOrks great for when i don't want to bring my 112.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 13 Nov 2006 5:23 pm

It simply depends on volume.

A DR can have a cleaner speaker, be biased colder for clean headroom, use 6L6's (but NOT a solid-state rectifier, please!!) - all benign mods. But at some point you'll hit the wall as far as volume goes.

But - if you can crank it and not get ovverun by a no-control drummmer, it's a tremendous sounding steel or guitar amp. Put 6L6's in it, bias it for headroom, stick in a Weber Cal-12 with paper dustcap and you'll be amazed at the volume you can get out of the little bugger...and with only 22 watts of power.

Mike Phillips · Post by **Mike Phillips** » 13 Nov 2006 7:17 pm

man - you guys are the best! i knew i'd get immediate advice here. i can't thank you enough.

hey jim sliff - you're recommending the weber cali for clean volume, eh? i have an email into ted weber describing my situation. see what he says and then maybe just go ahead and do it. have you heard anything about his "beam blocker"? today was the first i ever read anything about it. what's the word?

thanks again guys! keep it coming; i love this amp tweaker stuff.

mike

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 13 Nov 2006 8:44 pm

Mike,
The pic below is my 1964 pre-CBS Deluxe Reverb. My Dad bought me this amp 35 years ago when I was playing rock in high school.
I had it re-capped last year and now it's once again a hoss! I mostly use it at home in my music room. But I have a dinner show gig on Friday Nights in a small Catfish Restaurant and it's great for that venue. You're right about the weight, it's much lighter than my Webb 614-E, Fender Twin Reverb, or my Peavey Nashville 1000.

Nick

PS: The Princeton Reverb in the picture is a '67 model. I let Linda use it with her Fender Stringmaster. [This message was edited by Nick Reed on 13 November 2006 at 08:46 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 13 Nov 2006 8:56 pm

The "Beam Blocker" is a very simple device we used to jury-rig back in the 60's/70's on PA systems so as to not kill the front row with treble, which tends to disperse well but be nasty at close range.

It's merely a speaker dustcap or other dome (we made them flat) that is attached to a thin strap that runs across the front of the speaker. It sits right in front of the very center of the speaker, where the highest "treble concentration" is focused. It lets the smoother treble frequencies disperse well, but kills the harsh "icepick" that comes from close-range listening.

They work great if you play where your amp is behind you at head level, or where the crowd is in the direct path of the speaker. Off-axis you barely notice it's there, and it has zero effect on normal off-center miking (If you mic your amp by hanging a mic over the top of the amp and it sits dead-center, it might not work out well....but that's an awful micing technique with most normal stage mics like SM57's and such anyway). It works wonders with JBL's - I would not use a JBL without some sort of device...well, actually I probably wouldn't use one anyway...my least favorite speaker except for new Jensens and Utahs. the Weber will give you all the "clean" of a JBL with more armth.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 13 Nov 2006 9:22 pm

I think the Fender deluxe sounds pretty good with a steel,that is provided you don't need to play it too loud. For a small or medium sized room gig it should sound very nice.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 13 Nov 2006 9:24 pm

Does that Deluxe come with fries?[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 13 November 2006 at 09:49 PM.]

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 13 Nov 2006 10:17 pm

Mike,
I have a 64 BF and a 73 SF I like 'em both.. the SF is a bit cleaner. I have played a lot of gigs with the Deluxes and it usually works out, but be prepared to deal with the distortion if the band gets loud. When that happens, I just play rock slide guitar type stuff, or since I am doubling on guitar, I just grab the Tele and join the mayhem...
You are welcome to stop by the studio sometime and check the Deluxes out.

Slightly off topic... I recently came into posession of a blonde 63 Bassman.... I didn't know if it would be good for steel, but I think that it might be my new favorite.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 13 Nov 2006 11:07 pm

A '73 being cleaner than a BF is luck of the draw. The differences between BF and SF DR's are sonically nil. It boils down to tubes, speakers, bias, and normal service - caps etc.

ANY DR can be made to play with tremendous headroom using 6L6 tubes, a cleaner speaker and a rebias. But they still will be somewhat limited depending on band volume and mic'ing. For small clubs and studio use a DR should work fine for steel - and the tone is far richer than the ubiquitous SS steel amp.

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 13 Nov 2006 11:59 pm

transformers can tweak an amp quite a bit too.

my only beef is:
tubes tend to compress and slow the attack...fast passages get mushy and loose that articulated separation. they sag and "fart out" on lower frequencies as well

and don't forget a backup!

had my fenders fail on gigs many a time....pluggin the tele into the NV112.....guitar players coming up and sayin' "wow, what great tone, what you runnin?".....me says "peavey"...the NV112 has a great tone and will really keep up on a loud band......

ever try a lab series?
awesome SS tele amps......nice on steel too
some of those music mans are nice dual use amps as well...i think they employ some SS too.

what i want is a mix and match pre/power amp
SS->SS
Tube->>SS
SS->Tube
Tube->Tube

w/ FX loop & tuner out[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 14 November 2006 at 12:19 AM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 14 Nov 2006 6:12 am

Rand has a great point. That was the only drawback of using my old SF Twin with the steel: the tone became inarticulate on fast runs, and the bottom end tended to get mushy at times. There are reasons for the SS amp in the world of steel players. Curly Chalker knew what he was doing when he helped design the Session 400.....he wasn't just shooting in the dark. He probably took into account the limitations of tube amps for clean tone at high volumes. It's just conjecture, but tubes may have been used in the Session of it wasn't for their limited ability to produce the loud, clean, articulate tone necessary for a broad array of frequencies and fast, intricate passages.

There's another very real reason a high number of steel players use SS amps, and it's basically for the copious amounts of clean headroom needed to use a volume pedal for sustain and expression. A Deluxe Reverb will not properly provide this headroom. I used an original BF Deluxe on some gigs a few years ago, and it just wasn't enough power - even in the small rooms - for me. The lack of volume pedal sustain was frustrating, and I ended up playing to the amp - which is never a good thing. [This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 14 November 2006 at 06:21 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 14 Nov 2006 6:20 am

"tubes tend to compress and slow the attack...fast passages get mushy and loose that articulated separation. they sag and "fart out" on lower frequencies as well"

That can be true of the wrong rectifier, or bad tbes, or lousy (over) biasing - but a wel set-up tube amp is no less responsive and articulate than any SS amp. That's a misconception that's based on badly servced tube amps.

Audiophiles who use high-end stero equipment use tubes because of the articulation and added warmth.

We know a lot more now about how to properly set up and fine-tune tube amps tham we did 20 years ago. If ALL you want is clan tone with a sharp edge, SS is the way to go. If you want clean wth a warmer tone and much wider harmonic content, go tube.

And tube amp failures are no more common than SS amp failures...in fact, a properly serviced tube amp is at least as reliable as the average SS amp.

I realize when the intial designs came about there were specific needs...but times have changed.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 14 Nov 2006 6:39 am

Jim, I don't think you can compare home stereo equipment with amplifiers. Many times, the home audiofile is listening to tracks that have been mastered already. All they need is warmth, and the tubes provide it.

I like tubes best for warmth and colour, but sometimes a bit of dirt comes along with that. In the studio, there's nothing like tubes to warm up a vocal track. However, there are low amounts of distortion present in most cases, which is part and parcel of the tube character. In a lot of cases, this added character is beneficial to the track and gives it presence and punch. I'm not sure if this side-effect of tube usage is always conductive to the pedal steel. The early steel sounds were obviously coming from tube amps, but you can clearly hear a lot of break-up, especially when the player digs in hard. This sound definitely has character, but it may have been something that the steel player would have rectified had he the technology to do so. I find such early sounds charming and nostalgic, butI doubt the players did. In fact, a lot of players switched to SS as soon as the technology made itself available.[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 14 November 2006 at 06:52 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 14 Nov 2006 8:28 am

Mike,
I used a new Fender Deluxe RI for 6 weeks of touring with Hem. Worked fantastic. I wouldn't want to play a bar gig where I needed to cover the room with one though.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 14 Nov 2006 9:33 am

Jim...hate to say it...but tube amp failures are way more prone than SS failures, especially when you are talking about 40 year old components in a blackface. And believe me I know about biasing, tubes and rectifiers. I have rebuilt over 40 blackface amps. I kept my favorite 10 or so. I ditched about 25 SF amps except for 2 of the aluminum trim type.
If I'm playing a Blackface DR i bring a second one as backup. Had 4 fail in a 2 week period...arced tubes, screen resistors, blown rectifiers....etc. The power get reals dirty in AZ and CO in the older mining towns.
Been running a nashville 400 for 5 years straight.....never a breakdown...a NV112 for 2 years now and never a breakdown.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 14 Nov 2006 10:39 am

Rand,
I have the same experience with older tube amps. I was not going to bring my late 60's deluxe on the road. It sounds great but is fussy and not reliable enough for critical road work.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Mike Phillips · Post by **Mike Phillips** » 14 Nov 2006 11:05 am

i really appreciate all the feedback. your experiences are all very helpful and going into my mental database as i try to make a decision.

bob hoffnar - i sent you an email off-line, my friend.

again, i'm trying to stay away from lugging two amps to a gig i'm doing double duty on. it's new york, so that means cabs, loading into tight spaces, etc... the "stage" i played on this weekend barely had room for me, the drummer, and a bass player. the two other guys were on the floor with the crowd!

i don't mind a little breakup; i like the notes to have a little bit of hair on them. and i have a podxt if i'm looking to record crystal clear stuff.

i have another question: anybody ever use an extension cab with a 15" in it along with the DR? would that solve some of the clean volume issue as the amp gets turned up?

the collective experience of the folks on this forum is a great resource, and it's so in line with what the web is best for. plus, it's pretty thrilling to see an email telling me someone has replied to the topic.

mike

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 14 Nov 2006 12:12 pm

Used a Deluxe recently at a session. Not being set up or biased for a steel guitar it had little headroom before the sound got dirty, but I loved the tone!

Drew

------------------

Drew Howard - website - Red guitars sound better!

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 14 Nov 2006 2:08 pm

here's one currently on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fender-Deluxe-Reverb-Blackface-64-Mod_W0QQitemZ170049644191QQihZ007QQcategoryZ38074QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem [This message was edited by Nick Reed on 14 November 2006 at 02:10 PM.]

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 14 Nov 2006 2:43 pm

Mike,
An extension cab with a 15" will get you a little more volume.... but then you are toting 2 cabinets, so why not two amps?...

Mike Phillips · Post by **Mike Phillips** » 14 Nov 2006 2:49 pm

hey mike --

was just thinking a 15" cab for when it's a bigger venue of somethin'... although bigger venues tend to mic my amps pretty good.

just thinking aloud.

mike