Panther Hall amp... Fender or Standel?

Al Moss · Post by **Al Moss** » 8 Jun 2006 6:44 pm

What is Lloyd's amp on the Panther Hall recording? -always thought that it was a Twin, but recently heard that it might have been a Standel. Anybody know? It's a grteat tone either way and the performance ain't bad neither. -love that album.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 8 Jun 2006 6:51 pm

I must say up front that I don't have the definite answer, but; from back then to this very moment I have always been under the impression that at that particular time, Lloyd used a Fender Twin~Reverb, with a 15” JBL D–130 speaker! I'm speaking of the days of Kawlijah (sp)!
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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 08 June 2006 at 07:54 PM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 8 Jun 2006 7:02 pm

Whatever it was, it was the best sounding steel tone on a live recording I've ever heard.

Jan Jonsson · Post by **Jan Jonsson** » 9 Jun 2006 2:52 am

Here's a thread discussing the Panther Hall recording, including the (Twin Reverb) amp used.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/001673.html

-- Jan

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Janjo's home page
Gear: Fulawka D-10 8+8, Fender Deluxe 8, Alkire E-Harp, Marrs/Fluger Cat-Can, Fender CS Nocaster

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Jun 2006 3:00 am

A bit more trivia as told to me ( and others) by Loyd...

It was a brand new Fender Twin with 2x12 D120 JBL's. Loyd had requested an amp be rented for a him so he would not have to drag one along with him.

According to Loyd, he was extremely pleased with the amp and after the gig, he was sorry he didn't buy it.

So there ya have it..pure and simple...

It was a factory stock 2x12 JBL Black face Twin. And a good one at that...

( wait, maybe Siver Face )
1968 tells me Silver...

And who said Fender didn't make a great Steel amp in the late 60's!

For my tastes, like many here, Loyd on this record , may be the single finest sounding Steel on record...I still consider the Panther Hall record to be one of the TWO most important Steel Guitar records to of all time...

Loyd told us the story of Panther Hall I think a year or so back at one of the Nashville Super jams...

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 June 2006 at 03:29 AM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 9 Jun 2006 5:58 am

Anybody know of a CD of this for a good price. Surely someone has put this out on CD.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 9 Jun 2006 6:08 am

I'm not exactly sure, but I thought it was actually a '68 silverfaced Twin with D120's. What a tone. The recording is such a classic. What's cool is that it was a 3 track recording. As simple as it gets. A stereo pair of mics to capture the stage sound, and a single channel for Charlie's voice. No mixing of the band other than how the actual players mixed themselves on stage. No close mic's on any instruments. Real, pure, live music.

Brad

Al Moss · Post by **Al Moss** » 9 Jun 2006 6:45 am

So- it was a Fender then, and a new Silver Face with a pair of 12" JBL's. Thanks for the clarification, nice report from the source too, as Lloyd points out the details from the link above.
Also, from the above forum archive link, Bobby mentions (March of 2002) having just received 6 copies of Panther Hall from his distributor but it looks like those must be long gone and there are no new discs of the Panther Hall album. There may be a few strays offered up in the used areas of some Amazon listings. The copy that I have is a copy that a steel guitar playing pal passed along to me a few years back. Maybe it's irrelevant anyway, but, it's a gray area to me as to whether or not there are any copyright issues invoved in passing along a copy if the disc is out of print.[This message was edited by Al Moss on 09 June 2006 at 07:56 AM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 9 Jun 2006 6:51 am

Brad. Thanks for the email!

The above reference to LG says that it was a 4 track recording and that the steel had a track the vocal had a track and the stereo image of the band on the other two.

How would you like to hear a CD of just Lloyds track!!

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Jun 2006 7:19 am

I was gonna say........

If the band was stereo-mic'ed, then one of the mics had to be VERY close to the Twin. There's a clarity to that steel that would not be there from distant mic'ing.[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 09 June 2006 at 08:19 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Jun 2006 7:47 am

As Bill H. says, Lloyd's response in the above link says Charlie had one channel, Lloyd had a second channel, and the band shared the remaining two. Sounds like extremely intelligent production technique to me.

Like for many, this is one of my absolute favorite country records, period. I have 3 or 4 vinyl copies, I play this all the time, and wear them out. Strangely, for those of you with turntables, it's not hard to find at used record stores and flea markets for about a buck or two apiece. In fact, old country LPs are, generally, widely available and inexpensive. Get 'em while you can.

As far as an old Sho Bud into a Twin Reverb with JBL D-120F speakers - well, that's a great sound, to my ears. I like it so much that I just got an old Sho Bud rack and barrel 6139 to go into mine.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 9 Jun 2006 8:10 am

Aha. That would account for the extra clear and up front steel sound in the mix. For some reason I was recalling that it was just a 3-track recording. Isn't it nice when the steel is given such priority when only minimal tracks are available. At the time, you could tell by the crowd's response that Lloyd was quite the celebrity at that show. I think for most of us here, it's actually a Lloyd concert with this Charlie guy singing along.

Brad

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Jun 2006 4:07 pm

Now I know why the tele's so buried.....I always thought the guitarist was just being very laid-back.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 9 Jun 2006 5:57 pm

Tony;
I always wondered why and now it's a little clearer to me, but; it also makes me a little regretful! When I was living in Honolulu in ’80, I ordered a brand new Silverface Fender Twin~Reverb from Harry's Music and I also had them to remove the stock-speakers and replace them with (2)-12” K-120 JBL's! To this day actually, that was the best sounding amp. that I've ever owned. Now I wish I still had it, however; it did weigh 2½-tons and I traded it in ’82, when I began using (2)-Amps. for the Stereo~Effect! I also feel that I've got the next best thing now, with my ’65 Re-Issue Twin~Reverb Custom™ 15”. I think I would jump at the chance to purchase an extension~cabinet with the same/identical 15” Eminence speaker in it! But, I wouldn't except a substitute for this speaker. Both speakers need to be identical! Several months ago while I was speaking with Lloyd Green, I mentioned my ’80 Twin to him and he made the comment that the K-120's were very good speakers! I guess hindsight really is 20/20! Maybe we should all slow down, just a bit and give our present equipment a chance to prove itself! I have! Come to think of it, I still have a cassette~tape of a night, working in downtown Nashville at a club using my ’80 Twin~Reverb and my 1st. S/N 024, ’80 Franklin PSG
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I must Edit to correct my previous statements about adding an External~Speaker! I just re~read my Owners~Manual and discovered that both of my speaker~jacks are wired Parallel and the Total~Output is 4-ohm. Therefore, if I were to add an External~Speaker, I must replace the Original 4-ohm Eminence 15” with an 8-ohm speaker along with another 8-ohm speaker to have a ‘match’ for the 4-ohm Total~Output of both Jacks together! I'll get things right, one of these days! _ _ _ _ Someone, please let me know if I'm mistaken about this!
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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 09 June 2006 at 07:26 PM.][This message was edited by John Bechtel on 09 June 2006 at 07:28 PM.] [This message was edited by John Bechtel on 17 June 2006 at 09:10 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Jun 2006 2:39 am

John, I hear ya..

just look at us..( not the song )we are not content..never, ever...

so what do we do..

Go get a mid 70's Session 400..

or

a Fender Vibrosonic Reverb amp with the 15" JBL..( or Eminance I suppose)

Talk about going backwards in time !

and yes, what we ALL wouldn't give to get our hands on one opf those 2x12 TWINS with the JBLS from that era....

but of course, like many here..I did have two of them thru the years..and a TWIN with a D130 JBL too..

I wonder where they are now....

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 10 Jun 2006 1:08 pm

Here's a fresh message from Lloyd that helps to clarify the technical aspects of the Panther Hall recording.

From Lloyd:

A few weeks ago I recorded a new gospel cd with Charley Pride at Jack "Cowboy" Clements studio. Inevitably the conversation drifted back to that hot July night in 1968 when we played the show and RCA recorded the "Live At Panther Hall" album.
Clement clarified my prior statements about the recording itself. RCA Records did indeed fly in a 4-track analog tape recording machine for the project, with Al Pachucki mixing and Tom Pick rewinding the tape. Imagine, two recording engineers to run on 4-track machine!
However.....while there were 4 tracks available Jack Clement said he used only 3; the band, including myself, were split on two tracks for stereo, Charley Pride on the third. The fourth track was kept unused for Charley to overdub any or all of his vocals later. Obviously he didn't, which adds to the charm of this "live" album.
But this fact makes all the more remarkable the steel sound and volume level, considering I was on a track with two or three other musicians. I had worked hundreds of sessions with Pachucki mixing so he knew my playing and nuances like a book. It is equally obvious he was monitoring the fader for my mike with a delicate hand since I had most of the instrumental and fill focus.
The amp was almost certainly a 1968 silver- faced Fender Twin since it was brand new and had been rented for the occasion from a Dallas music store. The two speakers were the orange seal JBL D-120F type. It was a glorious sounding amp. The steel I was playing at the time was a Sho-Bud Fingertip tuning type, the "lightening bolt" sunburst color.
The guitar player, Johnny Patterson, was the only non-Nashville recording musician on the album. I had Wally Cochran, RCA promotion manager, call the Dallas musicians union and get us an electric player. Johnny was superb, and did a fine job under such unique circumstances and one where he didn't get much playing room. But he sure made his moments count, especially on "Six Days On The Road".
This album has been issued twice in cd format. The first was on RCA, the second a few years later, on Koch Records.
To this day, of the countless records I've recorded, this remains my favorite of all time. And while everything on the album was spontaneous I wouldn't, even today, change a single note. It was a moment that forever changed the way I thought about playing the steel and my approach to recording.
Besides, it probably didn't hurt that I drank two Coors (my limit then and now) just as we started the show. Bob Knight my friend and a forumite got them for me.

Lloyd Green

Bob Kagy · Post by **Bob Kagy** » 10 Jun 2006 2:00 pm

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 10 Jun 2006 2:04 pm

Since this album is of such interest to all of us, Lloyd graciously connected me with Jack Clement who had even more engineering details for us.

So essentially the band was miked up as they would have been in the studio. Close miked steel amp, guitar amp, bass, drums (kick and overhead), and piano, and acoustic guitar(s). The snake was likely split so a send went to the house PA, and the other split went backstage where a small studio was set up. Jack wasn't sure but he guessed it was a 12 or so channel mixer that handled the instruments, the vocal, and the audience. Everything but Charlie was mixed on the fly in stereo and sent to two tracks of tape. The steel and piano are left, the kick is up the middle, the overhead is right, the bass is right, the acoustics and guitar amp are also right. Charlie's voice went to its own tape track. The 4th track was left empty and never used. Later the mixing was simply the stereo instrument mix and then Charlie's voice with some reverb added. So it's pretty much a board mix, not the ambient stage sound that I had thought it was. But there is plenty of bleed in Charlie's vocal channel and also the audience mic's so the live energy is everywhere in the mix. Wow, what a gem.

Brad

[This message was edited by Brad Sarno on 10 June 2006 at 03:06 PM.]

Chip McConnell · Post by **Chip McConnell** » 11 Jun 2006 6:38 pm

Aside from everything else, to me that record is a monument to, and the best example I've heard, of how the steel can complement and support a vocal performance.

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 11 Jun 2006 7:40 pm

amen. as good as it gets. a magic moment that happens when extremely prepared people get lucky

Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 16 Jun 2006 5:38 pm

Inevitably the conversation drifted back to that hot July night in 1968 when we played the show and RCA recorded the "Live At Panther Hall" album.

Yes, It was hot that night 38 years ago. But The Coors was cold, wasn't it Lloyd?

A very fond memory.

Bob

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 16 Jun 2006 5:44 pm

Two craftsmen, carrying on a conversation. The dialog between Charlie's voice and Lloyd's steel work was wonderful.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Jun 2006 11:39 pm

This recording trivia begs the question.

How was this recording monitored?

He said a seperate desk where
"a small studio was set up"
Headphones, speaker? Which kind?

Lloyd was quite lucky to get an engineer
who REALLY know how he played too. (Charlie too)

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 17 Jun 2006 6:11 am

He said there was a pair of mid-sized monitor speakers in their little "studio" room, perhaps Altecs, but he wasn't sure.

Brad

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 17 Jun 2006 6:26 am

When my wife and I moved to Colorado in 1967, I traded my Fender Bassman amp and Spring reverb unit in on a silver faced Twin Reverb with JBL speakers.

I ordered it from the factory with the JBLs. I still have the amp and it sounds as good today as it did in 1967.

Erv