What other amps are good for steel?

Charles Dempsey · Post by **Charles Dempsey** » 21 Sep 2005 4:59 pm

About 99.5% of the steel players I know use Fender Twin Reverb tube amps or Peavey solid state Nashville series. What are some other good amps? I've seen Sho-Bud, Evans, and even a Lashley LeGrande, but I know nothing about them.

Is there a holy grail of steel amps like Matchless or Dumble is to 6-string amps?

Charlie

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Sep 2005 8:04 pm

Charles, for solid state, the Peaveys are known as reasonably priced work horses, and one of the few lines designed for steel. But I don't think anyone, even at Peavey would claim they were intended to be the Holy Grail. The Stereo Steel rig is considered a little more high end I think. But I think that also was kept economically reasonable and doesn't really pull out all the stops either. Larry Bell swears by his two vintage Standels, but he must have the only pair in existence.

As for tubes, the silver-face Twin family (the Super Twin is my favorite) are also work horses, and one of the few tube lines made to play both warm and clean. But they were not really designed for steel. Some would say the 100 watt 1x15 Mesa Boogies (Mark ??) are the closest thing to a high end tube combo that would work for steel. They seem to be rare (never had a chance to try one myself, so I don't know what the clean channel sounds like).

I don't think anyone has ever tried to make a damn-the-cost Holy Grail for steel, solid state or tubes.

Now, if you want to get into component rack mount systems, there's probably everything you could ask for out there somewhere. I would want a tube preamp, tube equalizer, delay and reverb and compressor, tube power amp, all high end, and speakers of your choice. Dan Tyack and a few others go that route.

I think steelers have not made a market for a Holy Grail steel amp. It is hard enough just to get manufacturers to offer anything with the high-power, fat-bottom, clean sound steel requires. When they find something that is passable in that regard, such as the Nashville series and the Twin family, they are so thankful there doesn't seem much point in asking for more, especially for such a small market. I mean, what more could there be? Regular guitar players are always looking for that sweet spot of crunch, breakup, compression and sustain, at just the right volume level. That's an endless quest. We just want fat bottom, warm and clean, with lots of headroom. After that, it's just a matter of quibling about the EQ controls.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Sep 2005 8:09 pm

If anyone really wanted the steel Holy Grail in a single unit, this guy could probably make it to your specs.
http://www.alessandro-products.com/amps.html

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Sep 2005 9:35 pm

I think it really depends on the player and the type of music he/she plays.

Somebody playing clean country will want a high-powered, full-range solid state amp. Peavey is the workhorse brand with Fender making some great stuff as well, but even high-level bass rigs (using SS or tube preamps and 1000-watt and up power amps with 10" or 15" bass drivers...which are not as effecient as guitar speakers, hence the wattage needs) work well for clean steel.

On the other hand, somebody playing rock or "alt country" might want a warmer sound and not need (or want) the headroom of that type of setup - so a 40-50 watt tube amp like a Fender Pro Reverb, Vibroverb etc would work great (I use both - I prefer a warmer tone).

In the studio tone, not volume, is the key. A little Deluxe Reverb can work wonders.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 21 September 2005 at 10:35 PM.]

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 21 Sep 2005 9:50 pm

All Standels sound good for steel. From the very beginning ( -53 ) they were designed as punchy, clean, hi-fi instrument amplifier. And that's what they were and still are. The old ones, especially with tubes, are rare and often cost you and an arm and leg. The solid states are almost equally as good, maybe not as warm sounding as the tube ones. And you can still find them relatively easy on ebay with good prices; there are five of them in Finland now, owned by various friends of mine and none of them cost more than 700 bucks and that includes shipping to Finland.
The new holy grail in my opinion would be the Standel 100L15, a 100 watt version of the old 25L15. Chas Smith could tell you more about that.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 21 Sep 2005 9:59 pm

My holy grail for the last 4 plus years is a THD BiValve tube amp into a THD 2X12" cab with a JBL K120 and a Celestion Century. If I need to play loud and clean I have a little Stewart 200 watt transistor power amp that I will power one of the speakers with. I used a component system for years, but I am completely enamored of the sound of a great sounding tube amp like the THD.

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www.tyack.com

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 22 Sep 2005 1:41 am

There are probably many amps around that will "work" for steel. b0b Lee (forum owner) uses Mesa Boogie, but b0b used to work for Mesa so he's biased towards those amps.

I've used my wife's Carvin "Pro Bass 200" at home, and with an external effects processor it does a nice job. I don't know what it would do on stage.

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 22 Sep 2005 4:26 am

Dan, is the Stewart one of those half racks? how do you like it, do you run it mono bridged? Your thoughts on the unit?

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 22 Sep 2005 4:39 am

Jim, any rack mount power amp is just that. A power amp. You get your sound from preamps with EQ controls and from effects units. The type speaker you use is very important. To answer your question about Stewart amps, They are excellent. The light weight,average 10 lbs, makes them very attractive.

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www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 22 Sep 2005 6:58 am

Jim, any rack mount power amp is just that. A power amp. You get your sound from preamps with EQ controls and from effects units.

John,
I disagree with your comment. I have found that the power section of your amp is one of the most significant parts. As a matter of fact the most "Holy Grail" amp set up I ever had was a tube power amp (VHT 2/90/2) with a Furman PQ3 (solid state) pre amp. I have found that the power amp reacts to dynamics in a much more important and fundamental way than the pre amp.

The THD Bi valve addresses this issue by having the direct output AFTER the power section. That is how Dan Tyack can retain some of the Class A qualities on the other side of his stereo rig with the Stewart amp.

I have checked the VHT power amp in several different rigs and then plugged the Stewart into the same exact set up. The difference is astonishing ! Like climbing an old oak tree and sitting in the branches compared to looking at a picture of a tree on a computer screen. Everybody could hear it with no arguments. The problem with the VHT is that it is hard to find, very expensive, and very very heavy. Then, as with all tube gear, it needs to be maintained. I sold mine and now my best amp is a 66 showman. Even that is a pain though. I need to retube it today. I'm maybe picking up a Fender Steel King in the next week or so to be my work horse and leave the vintage stuff for the studio.

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Bob
My Website

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 Sep 2005 7:58 am

Uhh, maybe a Fender Super Twin, or maybe a Webb or an Evans?

Keep in mind, though, that if 99.5% of the players out there use something, it must work pretty well. Unless you want to be different just to be different, my advice would be not to try to re-invent the wheel.

If you can't sound good on a Fender, Peavey, Evans, or a Webb...you got a serious problem!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 Sep 2005 9:42 am

On another recent thread Brad Sarno posted this link: http://www.dwfearn.com/whytubes.htm

The article by D.W. Fearn describes briefly why tube amps sound better to us and also sound louder, watt for watt. There are more details on this in the linked article by R.O. Hamm. Together these are the best technical explanation I've ever come across of this phenomenon.

I agree with Donny in another thread that at low volume there is less difference between tube and solid state tone. I hear some texture in the tube tone that I prefer, but a good solid state amp can sound quite good in its lower volume range. But when you stress them near their limit, solid state begins to sound harsh, and tubes not only get louder, watt for watt, but have a pleasant "bloom" with expanded texture. It has to do with the type of harmonics being produced. I agree with others that you get the full effect only with tubes in both the preamp and power amp. My Music Man (ss pre, tube power) sounds better than most solid state amps, but not as good as my Fender all-tube amps. Dan really has the right idea using the all tube THD with a hi-fi power booster for the speaker.

Charles Dempsey · Post by **Charles Dempsey** » 22 Sep 2005 12:07 pm

Thanks for the input guys!

I've got a Custom Vibrolux, a '65 Deluxe re-issue, and an SWR Workingman's 12. The Vibrolux is used for electric 6-string, the Deluxe for steel and the SWR for bass, baritone or keys. Acoustic 6-string goes direct to the board. I used to have a '65 Twin reissue, but it got sold shortly before I decided to get the steel. Bad timing (TM).

I'm leaning toward getting a new Twin (not '65 reissue) because it's got the 1/4 power switch, effects loop and channel switching. Not looking to reinvent the wheel, just wondering if I was making compromises I wasn't aware of.

Charlie

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 22 Sep 2005 12:30 pm

Boy, there are so many great amps out there. I tried Nashville 400s, they were alright, but never really grabbed me. I like tube amps, but clean headroom is an issue, so for live use I use a Rivera 100w combo (similar to a Fender Twin). I double on pedal steel and standard guitar, and my band plays a range from hard rock to honky tonk, and the Rivera can do massive clean headroom with a Fender blackface tone, and killer over-drive with a Marshall tone, so the versatility of the Rivera is great (if that's important to the player). But, you'll get the same versatility with a Boogie, a Soldano, VHT, etc. For recording I've used a Yamaha DG digital amp that sounded suprisingly good. If I was looking for solid state I might look at the Roland Jazz Chorus or an Evans, but I'd be thinking of using it for standard guitar in addition to steel. Try out as many as you can, there's a lot of variables and a lot of subjectivity. Building amps is not like building the Space Shuttle, so most of them, new and old, are pretty good. One benifit to a tube amp, particularly a simple old design, is the ability to modify the circuits and change the tone by using different tubes; I guess the down side is that you do have to occasionally replace tubes.[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 22 September 2005 at 01:32 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 22 Sep 2005 3:05 pm

I use mostly tube amps because I don't WANT the clean headroom most steel players crave. Mostly, a 40-watt '64 Vibroverb Custom serves me well - when I need more juice, I'll pair it with a '69 Pro Reverb. That combination still sounds better than my Twin Reverb, which is destined for the auction block soon.

But I'll use other things - bass rigs, as I've mentioned before, are great when you need clean and I use some SWR things that way. A Holland Little Jimi is my "blues" amp - 35 watts, all tube, and great for warm steel tones at lower volume.

But the coolest is my ZVex Nano. 1/2 watt of tube tone the size of a stompbox into a 12" Celestion Greenback!

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 22 Sep 2005 3:24 pm

I have to agree that all power amps are not alike. I have a MosValve 500 power amp, and it's a great power amp. I have a Peavey DPC-1000 and it is a powerful amp but very "sterile". I get a much better sound out of the MosValve 500 power amp - so much better that the DPC-1000 is "collecting dust", even tho it's 1/3 the weight of the MosValve 500.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 23 Sep 2005 7:25 pm

FSK with a little delay plus XR-16's on my Carter used with a LDR volume pedal.

jerry harkins · Post by **jerry harkins** » 24 Sep 2005 6:29 am

After 20 yrs of playing and useing many different amps, for my ears and style of playing the older Evans FET 500 Lv's are on the top of my list.
Jerry.

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 24 Sep 2005 7:24 am

I must be really different in taste when in comes to amps. I used a Heath-Kit amp head, I assembled from a kit, for 27 years, along with my Sho-bud Professional, D-10, 8+4. I tried amps that were designed for Steel and I never did like the sound. I purchased a Mullen D-10. 8+4 from Herby Wallace in 1999 and at the same time I retired my Heath-Kit and went to a Peavey amp head MP-5 plus and am now using a Peavey MP-600. The reason for the switch was the MP-600 has digital reverb, which I only use for singing.
I have never had any complaints about my sound, tone, etc., so I guess it's all in what we feel is right for our selves. I don't believe there is a possiblilty of there being one amp that everyone would accept as the only one.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 24 Sep 2005 12:25 pm

Jerry - I feel the same as you about Evans amps. Mine is now 20 years old and sounds great. I just got a new Fender Steel King and love it every bit as much as my old Evans.

Lee, from South Texas

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 24 Sep 2005 1:41 pm

Jim, to answer your question, the Stewart amp does the job. It is very transparent, and pretty much reproduces the sound of the THD amp (the line output from the THD is *not* a preamp out, it comes after the power section, which gives much of the great tone). In terms of having a preamp and a power amp, I completely agree with Bob Hoffnar that the a tube power amp like the VHT is a different animal. They sound vastly different from an amp like a Stewart, and are better IMHO. They are heavy, and do need maintence.

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www.tyack.com

Cory Dolinsky · Post by **Cory Dolinsky** » 25 Sep 2005 6:18 am

vht 2/90/2 has my vote , i bought one about a year ago and love it. i know it will work and sound awesome in any configuration or place to play. it was expensive , but i havent had to do any maintence.

dan what kind maintence were you doing to keep it up, tubes sound fine.