Time to Boycott Monster Cables

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 14 Jan 2005 2:39 pm

I thought I saw a compelling response from Monster Cables on this thread. What happened? Did I see it on another thread, or did it disappear from here?

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 14 Jan 2005 4:17 pm

I believe this type of behavior was pioneered (or at least very successfully practiced) by the Gallo Wine Company. Ernest and Julio sued everyone using the Gallo name, including their brother Joseph who was making cheese under the Gallo name.

Shameless lawyers.

By the way, are there any steelers who are lawyers?? Sorry, just kidding.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 15 Jan 2005 12:30 am

I hope Planet Waves doesn't try to sue Bob Dylan . .[This message was edited by Rick Alexander on 16 January 2005 at 02:15 PM.]

Jeff Heard · Post by **Jeff Heard** » 15 Jan 2005 5:55 am

My seven-year-old daughter loves the Snow Monsters video. I think it's
great, too. It's a good way to teach kids about safety on the mountain.
It really p!$$#s me off that these sharks think they own a part of the English language.
No Monster cables in this house, guys!

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 15 Jan 2005 6:07 am

Someone posted about getting a good quality audio cable and putting a pair of Neutriks on it, which is exactly what I've been doing for years. It comes cheaper (and way better) than those over-hyped, brittle funstercables.

BTW I never noticed any real ruggedness improvement through their patented way of casting their plugs in epoxy (or whatever it is), but just a way to make the plugs inrepairable (The situation where dummies then go and buy a new cable - I bet they hope that that one will be a funstercable too).

It's difficult to know if you're to laugh or cry about their attempt to try and own a piece of the English/American language, especially when thinking about their rather inferiour to mediocre product. Maybe they try to make their bread with ridiculous lawsuits instead.

------------------
Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 15 Jan 2005 7:47 am

This is the response from Monster; it still doesn't change the fact that I'll never waste my money on their cables again. I've been brewing my own for years now.

------------------------
Monster Wrongfully Accused:
A Note from Noel Lee, CEO of Monster Cable Products.

There have been a lot of rumors, misinformation, and false accusations spread on the web about Monster Cable and its trademark and brand protection efforts. We have been wrongfully accused of suing any company using the “Monster” name, and as being a “corporate bully.”

Anyone who knows our company, or me personally, knows that we are not that kind of company, and I am not that kind of person. The information out there is categorically untrue.

Being a champion of the entrepreneur, and having started Monster in a garage with no money myself, I would be the last person to want to stop someone who had a legitimate right to use a trade name for their business. Those who know me and have met me, know that we have built a fantastic company from nothing through sheer hard work and a lot of sweat equity. You can check out our story at: http://monstercable.com/company_info/ and http://www.monsterparksf.com/info/WhoIsMonster.asp

I have even spoken at several colleges about how to become an entrepreneur, and value these opportunities. In fact, my parents were on one of the last boats out of China during its civil war. I truly have lived the American dream, and I am not going to prevent others from achieving it. I feel fortunate to have been born an American.

Some of the negative press you have read may have started with some newspaper articles that have mistaken information in them, or others who have found this opportunity to spread negative press for their own agendas.

Snow Monsters mistakenly portrayed that our objection to their attempt to register trademarks was a lawsuit, which isn’t true. We have not sued Snow Monsters. We would not try to harm a company whose focus is on ski education programs and products for children. They will be issuing a clarification on their web site in a few days.

In fact, Monster is a big supporter of programs for children. You can see what we have recently done with kids at Monster Park. http://www.monsterparksf.com/fun/Photos.asp. The videos with Yomi Agunbiade, director of Recreation and Parks, that is up on our web site shows our compassion for kids at the opening of Monster Park. http://www.monsterparksf.com/fun/Movies.asp?MovieName=MCP04tailgate_12MB

Before you form any negative impressions of my company or how I have directed it, permit me to straighten out some of the misconceptions.

1) We do not have any trademark infringement lawsuits pending, and we do not object or take action against businesses just because they sell products that have “Monster” in their names. If we did, we would never be able to run our business, not to mention the financial burden would crush us. We have better things to do than spend this kind of money and time.

2) There are over 1,100 registered “Monster” trademarks in the U.S. Patent and Trademark office, and probably hundreds more that are unregistered. We are not suing them or taking any action against them and did not do so when they filed the tradmarks. These marks have been allowed by the Trademark Office, just as our 50+ marks in the various classes listed below. Unless they interfere with any of these marks or dilute the “Monster” brand, we don’t object.

3) We have not sued or filed actions against the hundreds of companies that are using the word Monster. So if anyone is representing this to you, they are not right and should be corrected.

What I think has happened, is people are misinterpreting the U.S. Patent and Trademark office’s database. When you do a search on the USPTO database for Monster, it brings up a bunch of records dating back to 1983; like a Google search does. It appears people are seeing the search results and assuming they are lawsuits. They are not lawsuits.

In fact, most of the search results are duplicate listings or merely requests for 60 day extensions (which allow us to do further investigation to see if there are any potential conflicts). The database shows Monster has opposed about 80 trademarks over the last twenty five years. That’s about 4 trademark oppositions a year, which isn’t very many for a company that has over 50+ Monster trademarks and is a famous brand.

4) Trademark registrations and trademark oppositions are decided by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, not us. Even if we do object to a particular filing to register a trademark, it is the Trademark office that determines if the business or person filing for the trademark registration is entitled to it, NOT US.

5) Our examination and investigation of businesses filing trademarks with our name Monster is normal processes for any company having a trademark that they want to protect. We know we don't own the word Monster; however like any other trademark holder we do have the right and need to protect our Monster brand when it is in danger of being diluted, tarnished, or infringed.

6) The federal trademark law says that we are required to police our marks and enforce them or we will lose them, or risk weakening them. We didn’t make these rules. Congress and years of Supreme Court rulings have determined the rules of the game. This type of protection is authorized by federal and state statutes (referred to as anti-dilution laws) designed to prevent the weakening of a famous mark's reputation. For more information, you may want to check out: Nolo Press (http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/arti ... 691972BE58)

7) Anyone can use a trademark without having the trademark registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark office, as long as it doesn’t infringe or dilute someone else’s trademark. This is referred to as a common law trademark. There are many trademarks that exist under common law rights.

In the case of Snow Monsters, we have NEVER sued them, and we are not trying to harm their company. I think that their products are great and don’t cause us any problems, I have written them and told them so. They are also using the word “monster” for characters, not as a brand, which is how we use Monster. Please, see the list of our trademarks below that I have provided for you.

I hate frivolous lawsuits as much as the next person, and would never engage in a lawsuit that was frivolous. They are a waste of the public’s money, and the time of the parties involved. In fact, the courts do not allow “frivolous” lawsuits to proceed. The courts have procedural safeguards to eliminate frivolous lawsuits, as well as penalties (like Rule 11) that can be levied against attorneys and parties who bring such suits. We have never been accused by a court of filing frivolous lawsuits.

9) The newspaper articles and other rumors that said we sued the Chicago Bears, Boston Red Sox, Fenway Park, or a Cajun restaurant are all untrue. We have NEVER filed any lawsuits or other actions against them. Don’t just take our word for it, do a search of the court records, and the USPTO database, and we can guarantee that you will find that we have not sued (or even filed trademark oppositions) against these companies.

10) There are millions of Monster fans who love our company and love our products. My passion for the products and unrelenting drive to innovate and create the highest quality products is well known in the industry and with consumers. Where most companies find out how to take quality out of something to reduce costs, we find how we can “improve” products and make them the best of class. That’s why our customers love Monster products.

I am very sad indeed to see misinformation out there as it wrongfully portrays the company to be a corporate bully, when nothing could be further from the truth.

If anyone wants to talk with me about this, or if this email does not answer your questions, please email me at monsterinfo@monstercable.com.
Although I may not get back to you immediately since I am currently on travel, I will get back to you.

In the meantime, I ask everyone not to prejudge until you know all of the facts. Hope this clears things up for you. We merely want to protect the trademarks that it has taken me 25 years of hard work to build.If anyone else is under a wrong impression about our intention otherwise, please feel free to pass this on.

Monsterously yours,

Noel Lee
The Head Monster

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 15 Jan 2005 10:55 am

Nice sleuthing Mike Neer. Very interesting to read self-proclaimed "Head Monster" CEO Lee's response. I started to think that maybe he might be OK but then I realized that he did not mention any of the lawsuits that his company did proceed with (as reported in the Denver Post article). He, of course, does not consider any of those suits frivolous. Disney and Monster.com and the Discovery Channel are serious deep pockets and I am sure that these three giants are enjoying the benefits of having a cable marketing firm in a “great partnership” with them as stated by Monster Cable’s general counsel.

Mr. Lee does have a point, although he didn't state it. Why hassle the entrepreneurial little guy, with no assets, when you can annoy huge corporations with tons of cash? Although, if I owned a trademark I must admit that I would be tempted to capitalize on it. But, to be fair, I would admit that I had capitalized on it in my response!

Now for the equipment geek part:

The Naked Truth about Guitar Cables

1) A guitar cable is a capacitor. (By definition, because a capacitor is two conductors separated by a non-conductor)
2) All guitar cables have a capacitance, which can be measured by a capacitance meter. This measurement is scientific and can be consistently repeated with the same result.
3) The more capacitance a cable has, the more capacitive reactance.
4) Capacitive reactance is what kills tone in a high impedance signal such as a guitar signal. It causes loss of signal, garbling of definition, lack of clarity and diffused bottom end.
5) AC signal (a guitar signal) sees capacitive reactance as a short across the pickup. The more reactance, the more the signal is shorted out

Numbers Don’t Lie

Monster Bass 21’: 860 pF (40.9 pF/ft)
Monster Rock 21’: 870 pF (41.4 pF/ft)
Monster Jazz 21’: 1330 pF (63.3 pF/ft)
Klotz 20’: 410 pF (20.5 pF/ft)

•information from Klotz audio interface systems, a premium cable manufacturer

I have tried many cables over the years including very expensive boutique hand made cable, where cable itself is hand-laid to exacting specs including extra distance between the shield and the center conductor. There are major differences in cables and in my opinion Monster has never scored very high. That being said, I do give them points for clever marketing, not unlike Bose.

TC Furlong

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 15 Jan 2005 6:05 pm

Thank you TC for posting actual scientific specifications - I would love to see more of this information made available to the forum folk who don't know squat (yet, anyway) about capacitance or impedance but DO want a cable that sounds great. Have you tested any other common makes of cables?

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 16 Jan 2005 6:44 am

Dave,

I have measured some other cables and I hesitate to put the results out without explaining that it is also important to remember that cables are not just a scientific thing. In some situations, like distorted rock guitar, a higher capacitance cable can get the player closer to the desired "block of sound" or power chord vibe. On more than one occasion I have flipped my tone bypass switch on my Zum in without adjusting the pot to add the slightest bit of capacitance in order to take the high frequency edge off. As a general rule though, the less capacitance, the better off you are for steel and other clean, full range signals. But remember there is no replacement for your ears to tell you what will contribute the most to your sound. When I teach, I often speak about the line between art and science. The science part is true understanding of the components and what happens when they mix together the art part is turning all of the scientific stuff in to something meaningful. Those who embrace and master both the art and science sides of the line are the ones who really get through to me. I think Lloyd Green has been very successful at being masterful on both sides of the line. And his playing really gets through to me! I wonder if he has spent much time thinking about the amount of capacitance in his cables. My guess would be yes...either specifically with measurement data and/or by doing extensive listening comparisons.

TC

Andy Zynda · Post by **Andy Zynda** » 16 Jan 2005 7:53 am

That capacitive reactance has a bandwidth that that is assoctaited with it, and an amount of rolloff measured in Db.
Those are the numbers I'd like to see.
They are the ones that count.
If this reactance is happening in the frequencies above 18khz, what's the point??
And if we're talking about decimal points of Db, it would be like an ant on an elephants butt.
Graphical data would be great, but the numbers will do fine.
-andy-

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Jan 2005 10:57 am

Have you mesured the George L gt cables.

And yes the Db roll off and frequncies would be most interesting.

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 16 Jan 2005 11:39 am

Andy and David,
I have done transfer function measurements with cables and I will say that there are very subtle differences in magnitude at high frequencies. So much so that you would not use them. I would say that this is due to the impedances, levels and measurement methods involved. I use a SIM 3 measurement system and in my opinion, Source Independent Measurement is the most high definition audio measurement platform available.

I used to be very skeptical about cables making a difference until I started doing the listening comparisons and correlating measurement data to what was observed. I need to tell you that I have heard more than subtle differences in cables with digital signals. Yes, ones and zeros. Call me crazy, I used to think I was being hypnotized. But it's real.

I think that the real difference is in the depth and detail of the audio signal, not just in the frequency response. I just spent a week in December in the Czech Republic studying with a brilliant man about this very subject. He maintains that speed is the most important factor in depth, detail and perceived sonic quality and even perceived sound pressure level. Also important is phase. And phase is, in a way, related to speed. If anyone is interested in this I could elaborate but in the interest of not appearing to be too much of nerdy geek (which I totally am), I'll sign off with this comment. Frequency response magnitude is a very small piece of the puzzle when compared to the above mentioned factors.

TC

Joe E · Post by **Joe E** » 17 Jan 2005 11:44 am

If I may be so bold to say, this comment by TC is the closest to the truth the cable issue will ever get to.

"In some situations, like distorted rock guitar, a higher capacitance cable can get the player closer to the desired "block of sound" or power chord vibe."

This does not just relate to Rock guitar it relates to anything musical that uses a cable. Anyone that thinks a cable does not matter is uninformed at best. Cables make a huge difference in tone. (BTW I use monster cables and will continue to) The trick is really in the one statement above made by TC. Find the cable that actually creates the tone you strive for. You can list capaciance all day long and it don't mean squat as far as the tone someone is looking for. A cable with lower capacitance does not sound better than one with higher capacitance. Period. It sounds different. You need to find the cable that works best with your pickups, your amps, your pedals or whatever. I choose monseter others choose george L, and still others someother brand. What works for one may not work for others. No two guitars sound the same either so what works fine with one guitar may not work with an identical model.

I am know where near as knowledgeable about the electronic phanominom as others and will not pretend to be. But I have really good ears, and can hear the difference in most major brand of cables.

The one thing about monster cables I find interesting and maybe TC can comment on it this. We know that High and Low frequencies travels at different rates and this includes through wire. We also know that they travel through different parts of the core of wire. Monster cables wrap the core in a way that the lows traveling through the core to arrive at a much closer interval to the highs (think sudo time aligned). I think the spec I read many years ago said that the windings on the outside of the core were a percentage longer than the center of the core windings. Meaning there was very little twist to the center strands and quite a bit of twist to the outer ones. And that the Highs (I think it was) travel down the outside strands and take longer to get to the end of the wire than the lows which travel down the center strands. This creates a sort of time-alignment for lack of a better term. Which makes the music smoother to my ears, less harsh.

TC can you comment?[This message was edited by Joe E on 17 January 2005 at 11:47 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 Jan 2005 1:39 pm

In which case..
What is the crossover frequency of Monster Cables?

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 18 Jan 2005 6:26 am

Joe,

I couldn't agree more that the selection of a cable for your sound is so much about individual taste and achieving the desired result. If Monster Cable works for you, great! You are fortunate to have really good ears. Sometimes I think mine are pretty good and sometimes I question just how good they really are.

As originally discussed in this thread, it's a question of value. Monster may or may not be a good value at it's higher price. Some may even get satisfaction from believeing the marketing hype. I think that it is important to seperate the hype from the truth. I have spent a large part of my career trying to do just that. We have been living in a marketing driven society for the last few decades and I think that a lot of people are kind of worn down by it and are just interested in the truth about things that affect them.

Boy, the HF traveling at a different rate requiring more length of wrap to align the time between passbands?? That's a tough one for me to reconcile. If you consider the speed at which electrical signals travel through wire (roughly two thirds the speed of light) it makes no sense that a couple of millimeters will do anything to align the time. An interesting question would be this. Is the rate at which the electrons bump into each other (which is very slow, relative to the speed of electricity) affected by position of a conductor in a cables construction? I don't know the answer but I give it a better chance of making a difference than just the speed of the various passbands. It is probably important to note that electrons flow on the outside of a strand of wire. The number of strands ultimately affects the "ease" of the flow of electrons. In general, the easier things flow, the better things sound. This can be demonstrated by comparing music being played through a large copper buss bar versus a small multi-strand piece of wire. The buss bar sounds terrible by comparison.

By the way, I am happy to hear that someone other than myself is interested in this subject.

TC

Andy Zynda · Post by **Andy Zynda** » 18 Jan 2005 6:51 am

"If you consider the speed at which electrical signals travel through wire (roughly two thirds the speed of light) it makes no sense that a couple of millimeters will do anything to align the time. "

Exactly. The benefits (to the human ear) will only happen at frequencies high up in the MEGAHERTZ region. Many orders of magnatude higher frequencies than even dogs can hear. Or maybe of your cable was a few hundred yards long.
-andy-

Joe E · Post by **Joe E** » 18 Jan 2005 7:55 am

Thanks for the replies. Ok I was not going to really go into this but here's whats up.

About 10 yrs ago I was part of a few chosen "Golden Ears" if you will, group of engineers to do blind listening tests between many brands of cables. Of course this was sponsered by Monster. This was in Chicago area. We were asked to bring in our absolute favorite cables, as well as our standard use cables, for interconnects. I think there was about 10 of us asked.

I brought cables by Mogami, Canare' and Beldon, which where my go to cables for mics, intereconnects, and instruments. One by one we A/B the cables in a series of different formats and styles of music. We each recorded our results on a piece of paper, and then compared at the end. Each time all 10 of us chose the Monster cables for clarity, tone, and over all smoothness (IE ear fatiuge). One by one we used the cables we brought, and the results were always the same. I then took to my studio a Monster 1000 mic cable. I went to do an over dub on vocals from the night befores tracking. All compressors, pre-amps and everything was left untouched from the the tracking session. I then only swapped out the cable for the Monster. The vocallist came in and started tracking and the difference was huge! I could not get the tracks to match. THe only thing I changed was this cable. I put the old cable back in, it imediately match the tracking again. After A/Bing the tracks with the vocalist, we recut all tracks with the monster cables.

I will say this, the Mogami and Canare cables are extremely good sounding cables, and we are only talking about small differences in each cable in a general term. But especially in recording, the sum of the parts equall the whole. Meaning if each track of a 32 track recording is just a tad better by using a certain cable, then that times the 32 tracks makes quite a large difference in final products tone quallity.

So what cable is right for you? Who knows? I think people who say there is no difference in cables are either on a tight budget and can not afford good cables, or are so miss-informed that they can not see the forest for the trees.

Of course this is just my opinion and those of my peers at the testing that day. Your millage may very.

Thanks TC for some great posts, and everyone else for your thoughts as well.

Joe[This message was edited by Joe E on 18 January 2005 at 07:59 AM.]

Joe E · Post by **Joe E** » 18 Jan 2005 8:09 am

Sorry one more thing. Yes if the original question was value for the price. Cables like Monster are way over priced. But when every inch counts in a recording, the price seems quite reasonable.

And for the record, in my studio my mic cables are all Monster. My interconnects are partly Monster, but I also have the mogami and canare's too. I have to compromise sound for price as well. So I pic and choose which will get compromised. It really becomes a choice of taste to ones own ears.

Thanks
Joe

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Jan 2005 11:57 pm

With the criteria of a $4,000 mic
a $100 cable seems fair.

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 19 Jan 2005 7:19 am

Joe,

Great story about the "golden EARS" A/B. I remember when that (or one like it) happened in Chicago about ten years ago. I think that it is important to reinforce your excellent point about choosing the right cable for "your sound" with a guitar pick up. Although, I think a microphone cable is a very different story. I would think that every recording engineer would want full bandwidth and a fast sounding cable. I can totally relate to your story about tracking a vocal only to discover that the previous tracks sounded different just because of the cable. I think that's why I get a little nuts over this stuff. It's that "have I got a bad link in my chain?" question that keeps me searching for the best way to do something. I want to know that I have done all I can to have a complete sound.

In microphone cables, as I recall, Monster was one of the first to address the notion of premium "boutique" mic cables. Canare L-4E6S became a standard because of their quad configuration for the conductors and the resulting improved signal to noise. Mogami became a studio wiring standard because of the ease of termination. To the best of my knowledge, neither was ever chosen by anyone because of it's great sound. In fact, when I have listened to either, they sound dull and slow compared to a high end premium cable or even when compared to Belden 8412. But they do have their place. On location recording or for live sound, Canare is my first choice because of it's superb RF and EMI rejection combined with it's flexibility and reasonable cost. Most quad cables by their very design are higher capacitance. I own more than 500 mic cables so, $50,000+ for the improved Monster sound would not really be doable. In the world of live sound where I mostly work, it's all about compromise and choosing the best tool for the job at hand.
TC

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Jan 2005 3:35 pm

I have a lot of different cables. I have no doubt that they would sound slightly different if a A/B'ed them, but I also have no problem getting "my sound" with any of them. The sound doesn't come from the cable - it comes from the hands.

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 19 Jan 2005 8:54 pm

Bobby,

I agree that a lot of tone comes from ones hands. Do you really always get your sound? I have fallen victim to the "search for the Holy Grail of tone" If you are not caught up in this sometimes frustrating quest, my hat is off to you.

I really wish that I knew as much about chords as I do about cords!

TC

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Jan 2005 4:17 pm

I like playing with different equipment for fun. I can almost always get a sound that I'm happy with.

On those rare occassions when I can't get a sound I like, I chalk it up to environmental factors. It was a lot harder back when I smoked pot. "Stoned ear" is what I called it - couldn't get anything to sound right or in tune. It took me a long time to learn that it wasn't the musical equipment's fault...

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)