Black Box International

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 3 May 2004 6:42 am

Good news for anyone in UK, Europe, Down Under, Japan, and others. I've found a power transformer that will allow me to make Black Boxes pre-wired for various international mains voltages. Hopefully by early Summer this option will become available. I'll keep things updated both here and on my web page.
http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno/blackbox.html

Brad Sarno
Spitshine Electronics
St. Louis, MO - USA

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 May 2004 7:25 am

Very cool!!

Brad, will this be with interchangable cords?
England and France have very different plugs.

A standard adaptor plug with a switchable multi voltage supply would be the best in the long run, so we could choose which voltage and cable we need.
And since it is on stage, a clip to hold the cable in might be nice also.

If not, a 220v / 50hz unit would be fine, but you would need to stock several different international plugs, or pick a standard for us to adapt from.
Just thinkin out loud.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 May 2004 at 08:31 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 3 May 2004 8:47 am

Neetaroony Brad

David, there are at least 3 different plugs that i know of in Europa -
the english one has a fuse in it which is pretty kewl
the french and german look alike except for the earth connector
personaly, i suggest that those who get one of these units just put the plug according to their country
Europa has 25 members now - how many plugs would that make ?[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 03 May 2004 at 09:47 AM.]

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 3 May 2004 12:43 pm

Great news Brad - I guess to get around the plug problem the easiest way would be to have the AC adaptor (wall wart) type plug connection on the Black Box, and the 230V folks can just buy locally the adaptor which delivers the appropriate voltage to the box. So long as we know the specs it should be no problem. Just a thought.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 5 May 2004 3:30 pm

I believe the German ones will work in the French sockets, but not the other way round...
as we discoverd somewhere south of andora one night with my German generator LOL.

I got a French / English adpator which works ok, but in a gig situation it is another thing to forget, lose or crush by accident.

So if it is built with the universal socket, the buyer can pick their local chord. And have a spare around.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 May 2004 at 04:31 PM.]

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 5 May 2004 10:34 pm

There is a noise issue with outside "wall wart" mains adaptors/ Power supplies.
Personally, I'd much prefer a properly shielded internal power supply. The way to get over the international differences in pluggery is to do it like your computer.
Fit a standard Kettle lead socket to the box, then people can source the actual power lead that goes from the wall socket to the unit locally.
Most people have several hanging about anyway- from old computer monitors etc.
Voltages in Europe vary from 200 to 240, but it is very rare for the internals of the PSU to be different in any way. The voltage regulator on the low-volt side takes care of the variations. It's all 50Hz, so the smoothing capacitor values might need looking at.

------------------
Cheers!
Dave

[This message was edited by Dave Boothroyd on 05 May 2004 at 11:35 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 May 2004 1:57 am

Dave, this is what I was saying,
the universal socket and your choice of cord.

I believe that Brad's power supply is internal, since this is a tube unit,
and wall warts aren't likely to be stable enough for the unit.
And less likely at the quality level Brad has designed.

Ideally if he had a 110v/220v switchable power supply, this would mean only one production run for him, not an US. one and an international one.

Changer the fuse and the cord and go to work.
This is also better for traveling pros too.
They might pick up the amp one site, but bring their Black Box with the steel.

But he hasn't confirmed if this is the case, a busy boy me thinks1

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 May 2004 at 04:45 AM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 6 May 2004 10:10 am

So help me out guys. I'm trying to piece all this info together. What's the most practical way to do this? I know very little about the various plug types over there. My transformer that will be coming in a few months will have all (well 4) the mains voltage options. I can hardwire the correct terminal inside the box for 220 still leaving the option of changing over since all the transformer leads will be in there, safely insulated. Or I could mount a switch inside to select between the two most common. My biggest question relates to how I should handle the power cord and plug issue. Is there a standard generic euro 3 prong plug that easily adapts to the various prong types? Anyone, anyone?

Brad

PS David, we've got your long-awaited care package of music ready to ship this week

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 6 May 2004 10:16 am

Also, the power supply is internal. There is a critical grounding scheme that exists in the design for both safety and ground loop elimination. The Box won't allow for a wall wart type supply, and it needs to be a 3-prong grounded type connection.

Thanks,
Brad

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 6 May 2004 12:22 pm

i believe the Franco German 3 pronged mains plug could be a standard
i can send you one, if you want Brad
or (if this does'nt sound cheap) don't include a plug

just have the three wires spliced and soldered ready 4 hook up
to each his own.....

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 May 2004 12:56 pm

Cool about the music, I know you have been busy as a beaver in a redwood stand.

The basic socket is likely the same as on the back of your computer you are reading this on,
a generic 3 prong jack readily available.

As CB said the French wall socket and German are nearly identical, BUT there is a slightly different ground contact scheme, that prevents one from fitting in the other. I had no problem in Holland as I remember.

You can put the German in a French wall socket,
but the French on has no "grounding groove" on it's side,
so it is blocked in the socket.

The english ones are quite huge, they resemble an american electric dryer wall plug more than anything else.

There are of course generic socket cables available in all countrys,
since most audio and computer equipment uses the international standard input socket on the hardware.

Brad, this is your best option :
Put in a generic cable socket, buy the generic to German power cable
(confirm this with Crowbear the electrician),
and have that for sale.
If someone for England (or another non-standard euro socket) wants one,
sell it without the cable at a slight discount. They can pick up their own locally.

But also put in an international generic fuse holder next to the switch, since double the voltage will change the amperage requirements.

Also avoid slo-blo fuses, I can't find them here.

And make sure you caps can handle a slightly below 50hz line frequnency. 50 is standard, but as we know it can vary a bit.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 May 2004 at 02:00 PM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 6 May 2004 12:58 pm

CrowBear, that's what I was thinking. Have the whole box ready and wired for 220v, but leave the wall plug off the power cable, and just have the wires there ready to add a plug. That's generally a pretty easy job for anyone who isn't colorblind and can operate a screwdriver and take a trip to the local hardware store, right? Hmmm...

Or maybe I should get a small stock of the right kind of plugs and just do it here and ship the box ready to go. Hmmm...

Oh, and David, the Black Box does NOT have a standard IEC power connection. It's hardwired with a strain relief.

Thanks,
Brad[This message was edited by Brad Sarno on 06 May 2004 at 02:01 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 May 2004 1:02 pm

Brad... the colors are different here.
I was totally flumoxed when I first started assisting the wiring on my house.

I know the USA standards, here is different.
All electricians I have encountered here are not current on USA standards, Crowbear is an exception having spent time in the USA.

Though an electronics tech who works on a lot of USA equipment SHOULD know...
but.. who can tell.

Go with the genric computer style plug, much simpler and safer.

Edit addition.--------------
If there was an IEC plug with a cable hook so it is held in securly on the box this would work. I have seen this type of hook.

I do agree with hardwired and strain relieved, espcially for road gear.

But I feel it is MUCH safer to not have non electricians deal with mixed international electrical standards.

I am a recording engineer, and have been here for many years.. I would STILL be wondering when I plugged it in... is this right, till I saw it on.

I somehow suspect most steelers are not as electically inclined as you me or Crowbear.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 May 2004 at 02:16 PM.]

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 6 May 2004 1:04 pm

Hi Brad - good idea about leaving the cable without a plug - although out here in NZ and Aus we use the 3 prong plug as well, although it may be slightly different to the european version?

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 6 May 2004 3:01 pm

Brad an 'IEC' socket is the answer, and then people from each country can use their own generic leads....Most of the USA amps like Peavey , Epiphone etc, come over to Europe with this type of socket.

Basil Henriques

------------------

Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

[This message was edited by basilh on 06 May 2004 at 04:15 PM.]

Dag Wolf · Post by **Dag Wolf** » 7 May 2004 3:40 am

Brad, I have to go with Basil here. This socket will work the best!
Also you won`t have problem with customers wiring the plug wrong and damaging the Black Box and get electric shock.

Another good thing about the socket are that you can remove the cable and put the BOX in your pack-a-seat without beeing afraid that the cable will be bent.

Also, wire the box for the country (110v -220v) you`re selling it to. This way it`s more "idiot proof". This will avoiding you getting in "trouble" with "fryed" customers....

What will the 220volt model cost?

Best to you.

Thanks,
Dag

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 7 May 2004 9:31 am

just a quick reply Brad (i'll be back later)
wiring colors here are:
Red or Black + / Phase - Positive
Blue - / Neutral
Yellow and Green Ground / Earth
are european plugs available to you in the US ?

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 7 May 2004 9:32 am

There's a legal problem selling into Europe. You need an EC approved, moulded-on mains plug, that's why I suggested the 3pin kettle lead.
In fact I'm looking at this post on my new 19" FST monitor, which came with a German power lead. I just took the one off my old monitor and plugged it straight in.
Put me on your prospective purchasers list when you are in production.

------------------
Cheers!
Dave

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 7 May 2004 1:01 pm

Basilh's IEC socket is a good solution considering that leaving it up to the client to hook up the 3 spliced wires will inevitably be incomprehensible to an unchosen few

now do you have room for that IEC plug on the SGBB ?

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 7 May 2004 1:08 pm

Some of us yanks don't know the term "kettle lead." I took my laptop computer to the UK a few years back on business and needed a cable that would fit my power supply with that heavy-duty English 3-prong plug on it. I was delighted when someone in the office instantly produced one. "Is that from your own pc?" I asked. "No," came the reply, "I just popped it off the tea kettle in the kitchen." And I the naive American thought that IBM had dreamed that up as part of their pc standard! (I should have known better -- they didn't dream up much of the rest of that standard by themselves, either.)

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 7 May 2004 2:00 pm

I like the IEC approach. It's clean and universal. I've gotta see how to punch and squeeze that baby in there. I think I can do it. I'll be back after some research on it.

Thanks guys!

Brad

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 May 2004 1:38 am

Brad, I am sure you will let us know how you make out.

From a manufacturing point of view it is better to build one unit that is good for all markets and not 2 :

Less mistakes on the line. Only one design to deal with.

No need to stock duplicate parts, and the possible confusion with them.

In general lower cost overall,
and simplified shipping and set up issues.

Set the fuse type, switch the internal voltage switch, put on a sticker saying the voltage, and ship it with or without cord, depending on the market.

If it is USA and EU complient, you have less problems with just one unit designed right.

The Universal Black Box.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 May 2004 at 02:39 AM.]

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 9 May 2004 6:25 pm

Brad, I think the IEC type plug would be perfect !! and we use the same wiring colour configuration as Europe.

I have several lying around at home !