Your fault??.. or production??..

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 28 Aug 2006 10:19 am

I will ask this question in a way I hope it can be easily understood..

Lets say a REAL stinker note, phrase, fill, backup part, etc finds its way onto an otherwise good recording... YOU played the clam!!!... Must YOU take responsibility??.. or is it the one that added it to the recording??/.. It seems to me, If I play an out of tune ,context or time note or group of notes, it should either be pointed out and corrected, OR deleted by whoever is doing the production... Just like an editor or proofreader can't allow mistakes in printed word..
I think I sense a mindset among the folks I do local sessions for... I PAID for this and it WILL go on this record!!!...

I know this doesn't apply in " bigtime" recordings... I mean haven't some pros had stuff they were paid to play NOT added to records because of on problem or another???... I would enjoy some dicourse on this subject.. I will post a clip of a recording I recently made.. a little later on..
Some REAL bad sounding stuff I am ashamed of..NEVER should have made it to the final mix.. some is out of tune, some is flubbed, also some is real sweet.. I must take responsibility, but how much is mine??.. It should have been cut out like a malignancy... NOT added to beautiful voices... I will post it after we talk about this.. I am pretty much ashamed that its ME playing ,but wonder if the fault is all mine... it must fall on more shoulders that the player correct?...

IS this the case??.. He WAS paid to play this so it GOES on the song!!!! Just wondering about this... bob

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 28 Aug 2006 11:39 am

Seems to me that it's your responsibility to point out the mistakes or parts your not happy with at the time of the recording.Offer to retake for free if necessary.
If whoever is paying you decides to keep the clams in the final mix that's their business.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Aug 2006 11:55 am

Once I edit out all of my bad notes and clams..

I'm no longer on the track

t

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 28 Aug 2006 12:08 pm

Well I would agree Mark, IF the player heard his part and deemed it to be of poor quality.. MUCH of the work I and others have done has never been heard until the album is released. The part I have in mind and will share was played during the session, and I never heard it again until it was released. I seldom get asked except by larger studios, "would you like to hear what you just played?..

It used to happen a lot, but seldom does anymore.. It seems getting some steel down as quickly and cheaply as possible is key..

When I hear a playback and my part stinks, I tell the engineer, "We are doing THAT one again.. It sucked".. He doesn't get a chance to ask.. I TELL..

.. I DO have to hear it to KNOW it stunk... Thats my point I guess.. bob

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 28 Aug 2006 12:16 pm

I believe it's the responsibilty of the musician with the instrument in his hands. You know well enough if you've made a bad track or not. So, to not say anything, puts the weight on your shoulders. BUT, if the artist and or sound engineer is happy, then let it fly. They're doing the paying and mixing. I, personally, would never let a bad track go on to a disc. I would re cut it, even for free. My name would be on that steel track and I would be embarassed too.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 28 Aug 2006 12:45 pm

So you guys are saying, the musician IS the responsible one, even if he has NO idea the part was bad.. No one feels he should get at least ONE playback??.. I guess I have much less musical ability than I thought..

I often can't hear stinkers until I hear them in the context of the song... This does trouble me... bob

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 28 Aug 2006 12:54 pm

Bob's back.

I think it would at least be accommodating if the producer would let the steel player hear it back.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Aug 2006 12:59 pm

the few seesions I have done they have commented and asked if I would like to listen back..or they have commented that it is just what they wanted..

They never sent me on my way without a listen back..

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Aug 2006 1:07 pm

IMHO...

A playback is a given! No reputable studio should record you and not let you hear a playback. Keep in mind, though, that "clams" are the musician's product, and if the engineer is unconcerned enough to leave it in, he's guilty only of oversight of the "clam", not creating it - that's your baby!

My most sobering studio experience was once doing a part just a little "pitchy" (but not really enough to be called a "clam"), and then having the engineer (after playback) ask me...Do you really want me to leave it like that? Is that the way you want to sound...or would you rather try it again?

I thank him to this day for his candor. (My second attempt was much more satisfying.)

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 28 Aug 2006 1:14 pm

Musicians who can't listen to the playback are like a chef who can't taste the soup.
The producer deserves whatever clam chowder they get.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 28 Aug 2006 1:30 pm

Mark.. that analogy is a stroke of pure genious... Actually I feel better.. good enough to let you hear what I am so embarrassed about,,, The tune is just a sample.. Not much steel in it.. I like my opening line, it works well and I end with a cute little harmonic.. The next line is painfully pitchy and is flubbed.. A player with 2 months under his belt could have done as well or better,,, I never heard it until the album was released and I was appalled at my ineptitude.. I bare my soul before you guys on this.. its poor.. My 3rd line is kind of cutesy Jerry Garcia style, but is again pitchy... If I heard this stuff, it would NOT have passed muster... bob

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 28 Aug 2006 1:31 pm

http://cdbaby.com/mp3lofi/five2-09.m3u

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Aug 2006 4:21 pm

I can sort of understand why you had a problem, Bob.

While the lead vocal's not too bad, some of that vocal harmony (over-dubbed by the singer?) is really all over the charts. At times, it can be really hard to "center in" when something else is "out", and it sounds like that might have been the case.

Learn from it and move on. We all do things we're not exactly proud of!

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 29 Aug 2006 1:03 am

I find it more productive to use a situation like that to figure out my weakness and work on it. I would be thinking about how I can improve my playing/musicanship/ears to the point where the next time I get in that situation it won't be a problem.

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Bob
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John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 29 Aug 2006 6:27 am

In the days of tape, and the availability of only a track or two, it was pretty easy to know exactly what you were leaving behind at the session. These days, everything recorded is probably being left behind in the audio bin, when it can be retreived and used. You really neeed to walk out with a couple of great passes on the screen, otherwise someone may be dumpster-diving in the audio bin, and you might not like what they fine...

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 29 Aug 2006 8:14 am

It kind of depends upon whether the desired final product is real music, played by a real musician, in real time, with real mistakes....or whether the desired product is an edited, compressed, punched, and steril product that conforms to contemporary audio engineering standards.

There is valid debate for both!

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www.genejones.com

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 29 August 2006 at 09:33 AM.]</p></FONT>

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 29 Aug 2006 9:47 am

Bob,

I think this is a very interesting topic, and have previously started and participated on posts related to this.
I agree with Donny regarding the “center of pitch” not being very obvious on this recording. I hear slight pitch problems with the tracks when there is NO steel in the mix. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to find an acceptable intonation compromise, just more difficult. In situations like that I would need a number of practice takes in an attempt to find my relative comfort zone in relation to all the other instruments and voices, and that includes recording some of my practice takes and listening back to see how it all works together. It might not be anything to brag about, but I certainly don’t think it’s anything to be ashamed of when not being able to record a flawless take on the first few tries with existing tracks that have pitch problems, and particularly when not having an opportunity to listen back at some point to make sure you’re playing what you think you’re playing.
If the person hiring you, or responsible for the session product doesn’t hear a problem, and in fact hires you again to do similar work, then you did your job correctly, even if you weren’t totally satisfied with your effort or don’t feel it’s up to the professional level you expect from yourself.

I thought you played with the right attitude and appropriately for the song, and for what it’s worth, in my book that accounts for what’s most important, on songs that I enjoy listening to.
If I make a point to listen to it, I can detect the pitchiness you’re talking about, but it doesn’t grab my attention, or hamper my appreciation of the tune.

Example: A couple of months ago I was asked to record pedal steel on a project. I had worked with these same people about 8 months earlier, and this time I asked them for more money for doing less work. They obviously were quite pleased with my work, but I don’t even need to listen to any of it to feel confident in guaranteeing you that not every note and lick I played on those sessions would be considered perfect by a professional steeler with a good ear for intonation.
When playing along to the main song they wanted the steel on for this new session, I noticed that I had to have my bar to the right of where I expected the correct pitch to be, in order to sound good with the existing instruments and vocals. I mentioned that I thought the existing track was sharp of pitch. They actually agreed and gave me some explanation of why, which I don’t recall right now. I explained to them that I could attempt to make the adjustment by bar placement, but I might not be quite as accurate as compared to playing with existing tracks that are in what most people would consider “normal” pitch. I also mentioned the possibility of trying to retune the pedal steel to try to match up more closely. After a few attempts with the song, I became sort of comfortable with the bar placement adjustment, and they said it sounded great to them in the studio, so that’s what we did.
I actually only listened back to “some” of the song after we finished, but what I heard sounded pretty good. Hopefully they’ll edit out the not-so-good parts if there are any, but that remains to be seen, or I guess heard would me more accurate.

Another example:
I was hired to record six songs for a guy’s demo project. Even though basically a song writing demo, he didn’t want to leave much for the listener’s imagination, so he hired a fiddle player I recommended in addition to me on pedal steel. He was a good songwriter, singer and guitarist, and had never worked with a pedal steel before. He got quite excited when we found cool steel parts that really brought his music to life. I told him that I thought he would get the best out of me, if I know ahead of time exactly where he wanted the pedal steel to appear. In other words, does he want it only to transition between the verse to chorus, play fills in the verse, chordal stuff during the bridge, or what? Then I would be able to write and practice the parts ahead of time and probably be able to execute better on the recording, but obviously, that wasn’t the way this recording session was going to go.
On two of the songs, I just played along to them three times each, and he said there was more than enough good stuff to choose from.
On the other four songs, we did small sections at a time and we worked on specific parts. We might do all the choruses first, then go back and do the verses, etc. I would play each verse 6 times, similar but not exact, and maybe in a different octave, or with a different approach. There would be sometimes when he wanted a very particular lick to start the song, or maybe try to play a harmony line along with the vocal. It was pretty exhausting, but it was his own studio, so we didn’t have the time is money pressure on us, and it was very much fun.
He promised me that he would definitely go back and cut and paste if he had to and make sure only the best steel parts would be left on the final recording. He got about four actual hours of me playing steel to his six songs, so I know there’s enough “good” material to choose from, if he does his homework, but if he chooses to include some steel parts that aren’t that good, it’s out of my hands. I admit that there’s no way I can play for 4 hours on 6 new songs, and every note, slide, lick, etc., will be with perfect intonation and timing. I am simply NO WHERE NEAR that good and probably never will be, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have something of value to offer to the session providing whoever is responsible for the final mix does their job correctly. If I do ever get a copy of it, I’ll try to post an example on the Forum.

Marc

Kenny Burford · Post by **Kenny Burford** » 29 Aug 2006 12:36 pm

I think Marc Friedland expressed my thoughts about it best, but I will say this I wouldn't beat myself up over this recording session, my question would be "who in the world would you try to play in tune with on it?" The pitch is all over the place.

Dave White · Post by **Dave White** » 29 Aug 2006 3:38 pm

Bob--my take on it is that the producer and/or engineer must take a big part of the blame. When I was working as a recording engineer, I worked with the producer, listening to what was being put on tape. Any glaring clams or glitches were caught immediately, and if we were recording rhythm tracks, if it was bad enough and couldn't be fixed with overdubbing, we stopped tape and started over. Most producers I worked with told me to do that, actually. In the case of overdubbing solos, we used a combination of the punch-in (recording a phrase or a measure at a time)and "comp" techniques (compliling the best musical phrases of a solo from several different tracks and combining them into one good solo on a single track.) I always felt responsible if a mistake got through, because it was my job to catch it. In the case of mixing down tracks that had been recorded elsewhere by other engineers, I would try to duck out any clams or sour notes in the mix where possible. I would even ping-pong a track, if necessary (taking a good part of a track from one part of a song, re-recording it, then placing it into another part of the song where it would fit to cover a mistake). To me, recording is a collaborative undertaking between the producer, engineer, and the musicians, and they all need to have a part in listening for mistakes. And, by the way, I NEVER recorded a take or an overdub without letting the talent hear the playback, either in the booth or on the recording room monitors.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 29 Aug 2006 5:37 pm

wow.. such good observations, and great advice... I guess I was most concerned about the fact that I started in tune, but just lost it so bad.. I think all of us have had to cut out a small pitchy phrase now and again,because we knew it was there.. I did not know this was there..

What I WILL do in the future is insist on hearing what is being played after I play it,,, I DO have a tendancy to "take the money and run"... I may never even get any studio work in Ithaca again because of these rants.. I KNOW its not my song, but it IS my steel guitar on it and I NEVER again want to be ashamed of something I played on.. Like any musician I want to take pride when I hear my playing, NOT hang my head..

Next time, it WILL be a partnership..I don't like this "ok we have enough to work with" stuff.. just a collection of licks to be plugged in where needed... bob

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 29 Aug 2006 7:11 pm

Bob,
Perhaps I'm feeling mean tonight, or just got a load to carry----But you only posted this after someone wondered where you were, then here comes another of your "woe is me" posts. You're a good player. Get over it!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 29 Aug 2006 8:19 pm

If you didn't like the part ask them to dump it.
If you like much of it,
but want to replace a section,
then ask nicely and poiint out where you want it.

If you say nothing, then the clam is there for them to use.

But ultimately it is the person paying the studiobbill,
or "the producer" who has to make the choice
of leaving it in or not.

If they are stump stupid enough to leave a huge clam in,
then they get what they pay for
and you can forever deny having played the track,
but you got paid.

Up to a point it's you doing your quality control,
but leaving it in the mix is their problem.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 30 Aug 2006 1:09 am

Well Steve, I wouldn't say you are mean. I will say you are just following your typical behavior mode when it comes to many of my posts... As always, there IS the option of scrolling up or down away from any thread you find objectionable..no need to get involved..

I thank you for saying I am a good player.. This particular song had me feeling otherwise, and It ALWAYS helps me when I share with the guys here, because so many have been there... I am not so disgusted about playing that crap in the 2nd line,even though it was an out of tune,time,bumbled mess,... I am annoyed that it made it through without me knowing.. I WOULD have gone back there FREE to put a good sounding patch over that spot...
I don't know where you get "woe is me".. What you perceive as being a crybaby, I perceive as talking telling some understanding friends, "Hey listen to this stinker I played".. Doesn't it suck?".. "I wish they would have cut it or let me re do it"

Believe me Steve, you are reading too much into this.. I am just trying to get some good discussion going, as I haven't been around much lately and probably will not be around much in the future, so I was just "talking shop with the boys".. seriously, it was nothing more than that.... bob

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 30 Aug 2006 2:55 am

Bob, you play EXACTLY the way I only wish that I could---Same roots, same style, same tone---Almost the same technique and feel! What guitar are you playing?
And all that aside, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of on this track! The vocal harmonies are a little off, and you stayed with 'em---May not be the correct thing to do at music school, but it made the track sound "right." Don't get down on yourself, man! Keep on playin', just the way you're playing now!

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 30 Aug 2006 4:33 pm

Steve,,, this is with the Carter..I dunno, it just sounds so off to me, I feel it should have been left off or corrected before the final mix,,,

As I listened more, I heard the vocal pitchiness and the pitch "center' was not strong.

I DO get down on myself,probably too much, but wasn't really with this record. I just feel I should have been given a chance to correct an obvious mistake,... Thats what you get when money [or the lack thereof] is a major problem in a recording session.

Corners get cut, and the song suffers for it.. No biggie really. but from now on I will ask to hear what others may be hearing in the future. bob