your opinion,live or canned drums

Gary Atkinson · Post by **Gary Atkinson** » 5 Jun 2006 1:17 pm

for the past few years a friend and I have been playing a 2 piece band.He plays keyboard with all of the rhythms in it,I play guitar and we both sing.Not long ago a friend of mine said.I guess you know you're putting a drummer out of work by using that.
My feeling is this.I don't know a drummer anymore that can play the old style country.
I live in central Arkansas and drummers are pretty scarce anyway.
The young ones that are comming up nowdays
say our old country songs are boring to play.I can see where they are right.For them and a bass player it does seem boring,however if they would learn to play a solid 4/4 shuffle and a good 2/4 without dragging or speeding they would find out that it's not so simple.
We still have a big demand for our kind of music and play most every weekend.My question is this ,How many of you use canned rhythms and how many are offended by bands that do ?
Puzzled, Gary Atkinson,Conway,Arkansas[This message was edited by Gary Atkinson on 05 June 2006 at 02:37 PM.][This message was edited by Gary Atkinson on 05 June 2006 at 02:38 PM.]

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 5 Jun 2006 1:37 pm

I don't like canned anything (I really dislike dobro simulators), but Gary, you did a fine job of painting the picture with your post.

Sounds like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think you would probably be able to hang on to a decent drummer that wouldn't be bored to tears, if he had the chance to step out and show his chops during some uptempo songs.

Of course you are also correct about the speeding up thing, it's seems to be universal disease in a lot of drummers who are average or below average.

We had a bass player and a drummer, that when I wanted to try a traditional country number in rehearsal, would start making fun of it and yell out "yee haw" type stuff. The drummer is gone, the new guy isn't nearly as good, but has a good attitude.

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 05 June 2006 at 02:38 PM.]

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 5 Jun 2006 1:42 pm

Drum machines don't ever replace good drummers, but they sure replace the bad ones.
I don't know any good drummers
(good time, good taste and good attitude) who are out of work.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 5 Jun 2006 1:54 pm

I guess there's nothing really wrong with having a canned drummer if the band is pretty good - sure beats DJ's at a dance.

I have been married for going on 25 years and we had a really good live band at our wedding reception. My friends talked about that party for a long time.

Most private events - people opt for the DJ these days - be it weddings, company dinners, proms etc.

I don't know why these DJ's think it's automatic that everyone wants to get out there and do the "Y--MCA" thing.

And if you ask for something that isn't disco flavored and is rock 'n roll-they automatically reach for Bob Seger's "Old Time Rock 'n Roll."

Yeah - I'll settle for the canned drums - if it means the rest of the music is REAL, and the amped up DJ guy stays home!

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Mark

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 5 Jun 2006 2:07 pm

Gary,,
I've been using canned drums since the first of this year, working a duo with my wife, her on Bass, me on steel, and Tele.

I would really be lying thru my teeth if I said I preferred it over a "GOOD" live drummer!!

Thanks to the Dj's, and Kareoke people working for just about notheing,
the money situation around here for full bands is really lousy now, no one wants to pay enough money to keep a four or five piece band working anymore.

This and the fact that I've had the same problems with drummers in the past that you are stating. They would tell me they wanted to play Country, then at the first rehearsal they'd start telling me about all these Rock songs they'd like to do!

A Good live drummer is a pleasure to work with, but I haven't found any lately, but I do have a "GOOD" canned drummer! He's always there on time, doesn't get drunk, doesn't complain about our set list, doesn't drag or speed up. If I do gets some complaints about him being to loud, well I can turn him down real easily. lol..

If I could find a good reliable drummer that "really wanted" to play Country music, and didn't have an ego problem about money, We would go to a trio with a live drummer, but until that time Luther De' Blackabox will continue to hold that position down!!

As far as it putting a drummer out of work??? They done that them selves!!

Larry

-spelling-----------------
"Fessy" S/D 12, 8/6 Hilton Pedal, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

[This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 05 June 2006 at 03:22 PM.]

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 5 Jun 2006 2:15 pm

Your band is your business.

It's a business decision based on economics and availability.

If you can find a good drummer and can afford to pay him then do it.

Until then, use canned drums.

Canned drums do not come with an opinion and they never disagree with you!

Go play - be happy.

Terry

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 5 Jun 2006 3:08 pm

The only thing I miss when listening to a band with a drum machine is drum dynamics. This is not so bad if the machine is mixed well. If it's too loud, it's very conspicuous.

I've never actually performed with a drum machine, so my opinion is purely from an audience perspective. Nowadays drum machines sound way better than they did in the 80's.

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 5 Jun 2006 3:30 pm

There out there but, I agree that they are few and far between. We were just fortunate enough to pick up a fella that plays 3/4 time with Brushes! and does so with a lot of finese! Plays loud when he should and soft when its called for! They rest of us told him we will carry his drums anywhere! HAHAHAHAHA! A good drum machine is one thing but, you are playing live, why not the rest of you? just my 2 cents and not woth that

[This message was edited by Larry Robbins on 05 June 2006 at 04:31 PM.]

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 5 Jun 2006 4:04 pm

If you want a real country drummer get one about Bobbe Seymore's age.Most of the young drummers[NOT ALL]but the majority of them thing a shuffle,has something to do with playing cards.I also know several HOT,HOT,HOT,guitar players that don't have a clue how to play a good backup rhythm,they can't understand that a good rhythm player such as Eldom Shamplin,Ranger Doug,or Walter Haynes is an art form,that is as important as being a hot-lick player.

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 5 Jun 2006 4:15 pm

If you want dynamics, line out the drummer to a volume pedal before putting it into the PA.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 5 Jun 2006 4:27 pm

Occasionally I play a gospel singing where they have a young drummer. A drum machine would be much better than putting up with him. He wants to listen to heavy metal and sit down and try and play country gospel. I do not mean to come across as arrogant but he gets on my biggest nerve. I was playing "America The Beautiful" one night along with a guitar player and this teenage drummer comes over and tells me to quit playing that junk and lets jam. Well excuse me, but I do not feel like patrotic songs about our country is junk. Now, to the topic, I prefer live drums unless the drummer is just awful.

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 5 Jun 2006 5:22 pm

I have lots of experience with MIDI. Quality drums can be produced using a good sound module in a stereo MIDI sequence, and saved for later. It requires a lot of patience using MIDI control parameters. A typical 4 minute song with dynamics, carefully planned, usually takes me about 3-4 hours to record. For example, I sometimes use 5 or more different closed high-hat sounds (usually at random) to imitate a drummer hitting the cymbal at different locations, with slightly different volume for each hit. I approach the snare, kick & everything else the same way.

I only do this during the summer, when I have 2 months off to work in my studio.

I enjoy my MIDI drum tracks a lot more than the drummer I used to work with, who was always too loud, and varied meter too often.

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Mike Barone
2006 Carter S10 5&5, Sho-Bud Pro-1 5&5, BJS 15/16" Bar, Nashville 112
Assorted Guitars & Keyboards

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 5 Jun 2006 5:45 pm

As every thing there are two sides to this issue,I have'nt worked with a drum machine in years,Back in the 60's and 70's I was a lounge lizard for several years in trio's and duo's.Played in small rooms,and supper clubs,NCO and officer clubs at Fort Benning Ga.The knifes and forks clashing were some times louder than the band,A live drummer playing with brushes would have been to loud.Some times you have to do what you have to do to make a living.But no machine can play with the soul and feeling of a live musicion.

Richard Sevigny · Post by **Richard Sevigny** » 5 Jun 2006 8:07 pm

I've done the duo thing with sequenced drummers and played with the real thing. Canned drummers don't complain, but on the other, it can be a challenge to get them to do another chorus when the crowd is up and dancing.

Nowadays, I play in a folk duo sans drums and a four piece rock band with drums. I find either preferable to fake drums if only for the flexibility.

Give me an organic drummer every time.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 5 Jun 2006 8:30 pm

There are a lot of places,
where drummers would just be too loud,
even the best jazz drummer.

But the owners are perfectly willing to
book
a quiet, but fun, act.

So, should you NOT work,
just because you can't bring a live drummer??
heck the drummer would NOT be getting the gig anyway.

I have done duos and trios with a drum machine,
and it worked well. Almost always in places a drummer would never be welcome.

In the last year we did a number of small club gigs with traps,
just snare and hihat and big brushes.
The drummer hated it,
he never understood that people, and other drummers,
thought he was brilliant playing like that.
He just thought is was constricting
and he looked bad.
He finally " took a vacation".

So now we play the same rooms with a spanish drum box cojon.
And a young guy willing to play,
and the audiences loves it.
"The best thing since Cheezy-Peas", one guy said tounge in cheek.

See cojon

Yes, Ris is a real human playing a percusion instrument.
But some normal drummer is not getting the work...

Sometimes drums don't work,
because they just don't fit in, literally.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 June 2006 at 09:36 PM.]

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 5 Jun 2006 9:26 pm

I've played with a couple of guys who are using the Roland electronic V-drums. They sound great and the volume can be controlled. I know they are not for some purists, but they work great when there are acoustic instruments.

And they sound just fine, purist or not.

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 05 June 2006 at 10:45 PM.]

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 6 Jun 2006 12:54 am

I vote no drum machine and no drummer!
What kind of law says you have to have drums?

I grew up playing bluegrass and old hillbilly music. So about 90% of the music I played and listened to didn't have drums.
Till about 35 or 40 years ago most country, pop, folk, Cajun, bluegrass, rockabilly, and even gypsy swing music didn't have drums. Now you can't even see a band play with out hearing the drums over everything.

Can people be entertained by musicians playing melodic instruments with dynamics, tone, and rhythm, or does it just have to have drums?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 Jun 2006 1:21 am

Hard to fit the drum kit
on a horse to get to the gig...

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 6 Jun 2006 2:09 am

Your not putting a drummer out of work. Your keeping two musicians working.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 6 Jun 2006 2:55 am

Years ago i did a single at a small bar. I used bass pedals, and an electronic drummer, i think it was an old Music Maestro drum machine, i always worked. And Larry

Thanks to the Dj's, and Kareoke people working for just about notheing,

not sure where your located, but a good DJ or KJ up around here is knocking down a grand to $1,200 for a wedding. And $200.00 to $250.00 a night in the clubs, times that by 4 or 5 nights a week. Someone likes'em...might not be my cup of tea..but apparently they're popular...not a thing wrong with electronic drums. We had a band around here years ago, can't remember their name, but they had electronic tracks that the whole band played along with. Background vocals, strings, horns, syth, the whole bit. You thought you were listening to a whole orchestra.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 6 Jun 2006 3:59 am

Bill Hatcher nailed it.

My jazz thing now consists of me, an upright bass player and a sax guy... and Dr. Rhythm. It's amazing how much music the "four" of us can make. We play a private function for $500- The other two guys get $150 and I take $200 for dealing with the contract and Dr. Rhythm. No one has complained because there isn't a drummer onstage! A $500 price tag for an excellent jazz group makes live music affordable for people who might be forced to go the DJ route otherwise.

With my acoustic 3-piece group, we take a djembe along and I play it on half dozen songs. That is a wonderfully versatile percussion instrument- there are more sounds in there than you can shake a stick at. We often joke when Harry (who owns the djembe) takes it out of its case and sticks it in its stand (a 15 -second operation), saying "Well, the drum set's ready."

DD, that Cojon looks interesting. What does it sound like?[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 06 June 2006 at 05:01 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 6 Jun 2006 5:47 am

I think there are drum machines and then there are drum machines.

I remember my first drum machine. I put it together from a kit by Allied Radio, pretty bad.

Now however, I use BIAB and I find nothing wrong with the drums on BIAB, especially if you have a General Midi II sound card.
Erv

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 6 Jun 2006 7:49 am

Fresh-Frozen gets my vote ....

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 Jun 2006 8:34 am

Rick it sounds like a snare drum and a bass drum,
with a several variations of tone.

We did a wedding last weekend.
I mic'd it bright from the front,
and all deep bass from the sound hole in back.

It is like a trap set and a seat in one.
Used in Flamenco music normally,
but I just saw two with with the
2nd place singer on American Idle.

I want to build a frame for Ris's Djembe,
so he can lie it next to, or under his leg and have BOTH available.
That would be a super small kit.
Full tom rolls and a groove kit in 2 pieces.

And no splash cymbals next to my head either.
I LOVE that![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 June 2006 at 09:36 AM.]

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 6 Jun 2006 9:32 am

Interesting thread, indeed, and for the great variety of 'fabricated' backup, not a word about BIAB (unless I missed it . . . and I did)![This message was edited by James Cann on 06 June 2006 at 10:33 AM.][This message was edited by James Cann on 06 June 2006 at 10:34 AM.]