What chord is this?

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 1 Feb 2006 9:11 am

What would you name this chord? Is it a Bb9 #11 chord?

E
C
G
F
D
Bb

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 1 Feb 2006 9:33 am

Maybe a C9+4?

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 1 Feb 2006 10:09 am

Andy,
Dave's response makes sense.
I admit that although I can "make up" names that might include all the notes, I don't really know the proper name to call it.
I notice that it includes all the notes of a C major chord in addition to all the notes of a Bb major chord.
Maybe there can be a simple way of saying this like -- C/Bb, Bb+C, or something like that.
-- Marc

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 1 Feb 2006 10:16 am

I suspect the answer may depend on what key you're playing in and what function the chord is playing. In other words, if you're in the key of C and it's functioning as a I chord, you'd use the C-based name. If you're in, say, Eb and it's functioning as a dominant to bring you back to Eb, you'd call it based on it's Bb name. But if you're in key of Eb and it's functioning as a VI7 chord, you'd name it off the C.

So, depending on the context, the answer is "Yes".

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 1 Feb 2006 10:29 am

If you are putting the Bb on the bottom then there are a couple of ways to look at it.

If you want to make Bb the bass of the chord and the tonic key then you could call it a Bb6add2#11. The F is the 6th, the G is the add 2 or just 2 if you prefer and the E is the #11. I would never want to see that chord come up at me from a page of music and me expected to quickly play it!

If you want to make it real simple then just forget the D in the bottom and call it a Csus4/Bb. That would get you all but one note and it would also make the chord speak a little clearer by getting rid to the interval between the Bb and D that would be real muddy on a guitar either standard or steel. If I saw a Csus4/Bb I would immediately know what to do.

If it was imperative to have the chord sound as close to interval wise as you have spelled it and still be quickly recognizable then you could also think of it as a C chord over a Bb chord C/Bb. THAT would be the easiest for me to recognize on paper and grab enough of it fast enough to make the composer happy.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 1 Feb 2006 10:39 am

Interesting ... I use this as an ending chord in C6th with the nose of the bar playing F# and D. The chord above is from Bb6th tuning (C6th down a whole step) that I used to end this version of Amazing Grace (scroll down).
http://www.robanderlik.com/online_lessons.htm

I thought of it as coming from Bb rather than C. From the above posts, it looks like I was wrong.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 1 Feb 2006 10:41 am

It's a triad over a triad and If I was playing it, it would function as a Bb lydian kind of structure, my favorite. It's one of those fits-in-a-lot-of-places kinds of chords. Could also be a G-7, 11,13. I think it would be less of a C9 only because there's a lot of stuff between the Bb, on the bottom, and the E on top.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Feb 2006 11:34 am

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 1 Feb 2006 11:59 am

By jove I think you've found the lost chord. CC

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Feb 2006 3:33 pm

Andy, Jim C. has the right answer; but you still haven't told us what we need to know, which is the key of the song. I can't open the links in the lesson link you posted. It appears most of the Amazing Grace versions are in the key of D. But above you said "in C6", but then said it's from a Bb6 tuning. Then you further confused me by saying there is a D and F#, the latter of which does not appear in the original chord you posted. So this is the ending chord of Amazing Grace; but is the key C, Bb or D?

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 1 Feb 2006 4:07 pm

Sorry to confuse ... running 102 fever today so that's my excuse du jour. The tune is in the key of Bb in Bb6th tuning. Low to hi: Bb, D, F, G, Bb, D.

The chord in question is played with the nose of the bullet bar covering just strings 2 & 1 (notes C & E) allowing the remaining strings to ring. The resulting chord is that outlined in my first post.[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 01 February 2006 at 04:43 PM.]

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 1 Feb 2006 4:35 pm

Bb9/6+11. There is no dominant seventh (Ab), so it can't be Bb13+11.

Also (referencing the same key) try BbMa9+11, to end a ballad that cries for a Major Seventh ending. Just play a minor ninth chord 4 frets up from the root bass.

Mike[This message was edited by Michael Barone on 01 February 2006 at 04:37 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Feb 2006 8:34 pm

Aha, now we are getting somewhere. In a C6 tuning playing in the key of C, this would be (it's much easier for me to think in the key of C):

Gb
D
A
G
E
C

For my own purposes I would call this a "C6 9 b5" - beautiful chord. But I don't know what a nomenclature expert would label it.

You could also call it a "C13 b5 (no 7th)." Seems to me that just because you leave out the 7th on an instrument with only 6 strings does not keep that from being a 13 chord. But wait, I just tried playing the chord, and if you add the 7th, it ruins it. So I'm thinking this is not a 13 chord at all, or any member of the 7th chord family.

I think most people would think of the top note as a flat 5 rather than a sharp 4 or 11. But then again, I'm from Mississippi, where flat 3rds, 5ths and 7ths are a way of life.

Another way to look at it, as mentioned by Bill H. above, is simply a I chord with a II chord layered above it. The 2, b5 and 6 are just a II chord, and so 6, 9, b12 is just the 2nd inversion of the II chord. This in effect is a C sus 2, 6, b5. The usual suspended tones are 2, 4 and 6; but I don't see why you couldn't have a suspended b5 in place of a 4. To me, this really seems to be the spirit of this chord. It is a whole II chord suspended over the I chord. In your key of Bb, it would be "Bb sus 2,6,b5," or simply "Bb/C." [This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 February 2006 at 09:55 PM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 2 Feb 2006 3:12 am

Bb69b5

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 2 Feb 2006 3:31 am

What seems to work for my brain is Bb69b5 or Chas' description of a triad over a triad. Gotta go downstairs and play this structure on the piano! Thanks - this was very educational.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Feb 2006 3:39 am

With or without a key, it's C/Bb for me.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 02 February 2006 at 07:02 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 2 Feb 2006 5:23 am

For my own education, I'd appreciate hearing from some of you guys why you (except D.Doggett) apparently don't agree with my idea that the name depends on the key and the function that the chord is playing within that key. You seem to think that there is just one answer to this question regardless of key and function. Please tell me why.
Thanks,
jc

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Feb 2006 7:01 am

I'm sure you're right Jim--the key matters.

I used to notate like 'Bb 11+6;' a friend called it 'Charlie notation.' That means you can get hung up describing every note, when the only way to do that is to score it. So since I chart for myself, I just call it C/Bb, to differentiate it from C7.

But let's take the opening chord from Appalachian Spring:
E
C
G
F
C
A

What key is Copeland outlining as the root?
Is the chord Csus4 or F15?
One has to listen further to how things resolve. So I guess key matters.
But to me, its function is what it is. In this case, its function is to establish a pallette of tones that he's going to use.
Another chicken/egg thing that defies standard notation.

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 2 Feb 2006 7:54 am

Bb6/9#11. The E on the top is above the octave (Bb lo to Bb hi). If you heard it within the octave, then it would be a b5.

Not that it matters now...

------------------
Matt
<img width=125 src=http://mywebsite.register.com/db2/00180 ... CN0174.JPG>
Custom Stained Glass Artwork

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Feb 2006 12:03 pm

Gm13 <pre>(G) Bb D F G C E
1 b3 5 b7 1 11 13 </pre>

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 2 Feb 2006 2:40 pm

Oh yeah?

Emi7b5b9b13 or "E half dim. 13th with a b9"
(E)(G) Bb D F G C E
1 b3 b5 b7 b9 b3 b13 1

OR (and this one's the most harmonically complex and "interesting")...

"2 Elbows Across The Keyboard"
Ab A Bb B C Db D Eb E F Gb G .... (and so on)

Top that!

Richard Sevigny · Post by **Richard Sevigny** » 2 Feb 2006 3:39 pm

Doesn't it depend on what you decide is the root note?

If it's Bb...

Bb..D..F..G..C..E
1....3..5..6...2.#4

and Bb/C looks like an uncomplicated name

But if it's C...

Bb..D..F..G..C..E
7....2..4..5...1..3

..and the chord becomes a C11

But if it's G... well b0b is right

[This message was edited by Richard Sevigny on 02 February 2006 at 03:42 PM.][This message was edited by Richard Sevigny on 02 February 2006 at 03:43 PM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 2 Feb 2006 4:26 pm

Maybe we're all beating a dead horse here, but since there's a Bb in the bass, calling it a Bb whatever chord makes more sense to me than naming it from it's relative minor - especially since the G note is in the middle register.

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 2 Feb 2006 5:10 pm

Jim Cohen has a good point.

I will accept the challenge, and attempt to complete the list, including the responses above. Looking at a keyboard tells me this:

Bb9/6+11
Dm11+5
F13sus4add9
Gm13
C11 (classical; the comtemporary form omits the 3rd)
Em7+4+5-9 (or whatever "E" chord you come up with),(not a practical name, but rather C11/E) Remember that C/E is written to show a C major chord with an E voiced in the bass.

Maybe 3 of these are practical chord names for this structure, anyway you invert it.

When I use this structure, stacking intervals in this series, I call it Bb9/6+11, since I also use related extensions BbMaj9+11 & B13+11. When you play a +11 ending chord and morph the 6 into the Maj7, or the reverse, it just makes more sense to me to illustrate it this way.

Mike

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Feb 2006 1:20 pm

Jim, I think Andy indicated he was in the key of Bb and it was the last chord of the tune, that's why I said Bb69b5
(Old timers like me would not use the 11th terminology) especially when it's the LAST chord .. Naming it as an 11th would imply a resolution was required !!

Looking at a keyboard tells me

Listening to a Steel Guitar playing this chord as an ending, tells me Bb69b5

BbMaj9+11 ? I would have thought a Major 9th included the NATURAL seventh not the 6th.

Finally I think it's what would you "Call" this chord that's important, so I'm presuming that I'ts when you Speak
Try saying B flat Major ninth added eleventh, and then say B flat six nine flat fifth.
I know which those of my ilk and generation would prefer
[This message was edited by basilh on 03 February 2006 at 01:35 PM.]