Sound engineers

Dan Hatfield · Post by **Dan Hatfield** » 14 Dec 2005 8:01 pm

What is the problem with these guys? I saw Joe Nichols in Las Vegas last weekend and was all primed to hear some great steel from Terry Crisp. Well, guess what, the sound man must have thought Terry was supposed to be a mime, because, although his hands were moving, nothing was coming out of the speakers. The same was pretty much true of the piano player, who I think is a pretty awesome player. As usual, the kick drum and bass guitar were splitting my skull, and the lead guitar was plenty loud too. I sat there with my blood pressure steadily rising and decided to do something before I stroked out. So I went back to the sound board and screamed at the guy "Do you hate pedal steel guitar?!!!!!" He kept his head down and mumbled "yes, I guess I do." But basically nothing changed.

I also caught Mickey Gilly in Branson a couple of months ago, and the same thing was going on there. The steel player (also the comedian) was front and center, but might as well have been a mime. I also screamed at the sound man there during intermission, and he actually turned the guy up a slight bit.

Do these entertainers never post someone they trust in the audience to monitor the havoc these guys are wreaking on their shows??? I actually have fantasies of being hired to sit behind these guys with a paint-ball gun to keep them in line. The first time they cut the steel out of the mix, I let fly with a red one right in the center of his back. I can hear it now. "Who is the guy with the red paint running down his back?"
"Oh, he is the sound guy who thinks the steel player is supposed to be a mime. But he will probably learn by the end of the tour that every musician on the stage is supposed to get a fair shake."
OK, I will go take my medicine now. Just had to get it off my chest.

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 14 Dec 2005 9:23 pm

Dan-

For as little as I've been in the business, I'll make the following observations. Most of the "pro" sound guys I've had the privilege of listening to and watching are one or more of the following:

1.) Older
2.) Deaf as a post
3.) Couldn't make it as a musician
3a) Bitter because of the fact
4.) But owned a PA
5.) So, they got a lot of gigs working sound
6.) Without ever bothering to learn about sound
7.) And having little knowledge of the board except the sliders.

My father used to tell me that a building inspector was a General Contractor that went out of business. Perhaps there's a similar situation going on? Buy up a bunch of gear with lots of LEDs and knobs, and make a fortune on the road hiring out to bands that don't know any better because they can't hear the front-of-house mix.

Just my $0.02 and agreeing with you at the same time.

-MG

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 15 Dec 2005 3:27 am

I've noticed a trend for sound engineers to spend 90%+ of setup effort on the drum kit, and the rest of us are an after thought.

I've also heard some recent pro casino concerts with excellent sound.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 15 Dec 2005 4:07 am

Without knowing Joe Nichols or his managers, I'll let fly anyway - I would imagine they're under some pressure to make Mr. Nichols sound as much as possible like Rascal Flatts, Sawyer Brown, Stone Pony and their ilk in order to ensure his "success." With the countervailing success of Gretchen Wilson, and the fact that Martina McBride's latest "throwback" album went platinum faster than any of her earlier releases, and the fact that the "alt-country" bands attracting the precious 18-34 demographic use steel guitars liberally, one might hope that somehow, somewhere, somebody will realize that nobody really likes the crap being rammed down their throats and that they would rather listen to real songs with real melodies and real lyrics played on real instruments if they had a choice, but; one has been wrong before, hasn't one? Maybe what Joe Nichols really needs is a pouf-haired spike-encrusted lead guitarist playing his Les Paul with his teeth through a screaming Marshall stack while the smoke bombs go off; it worked so well for KISS, after all.

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"The sole cause of man’s unhappiness is that he does not know how to stay quietly in his own room." - Pascal

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 15 Dec 2005 4:24 am

When I play on a large stage, 90% of the effort goes to the drum sound, no doubt about it, has been like that for a long time. There was a mindset shift in 70s when a very prominent bass/kick drum sound became mandatory. One can hear the difference in new vs. old recordings.

In general, I like it somewhere in between. In the "good old days", the bass end in live shows was often muddy and distorted. I don't suggest a return to that, just a bit more balance.

"Do you hate pedal steel guitar?!!!!!" He kept his head down and mumbled "yes, I guess I do."

I think that is the root of a lot of these problems. Steel guitar seems to be a "love it or hate it" proposition for a lot of people. If a sound guy likes steel, I find I can hear real well. Otherwise, monitor and main mixes crush anything but the loudest steel amp. With these guys, if I turn up the steel amp, they compensate in the PA.

For good or bad, sound people often seem to consider themselves essentially "producers" of the live show. Unless the band is paying them, they do the bidding of the house, not the band.

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 15 Dec 2005 4:28 am

I recently went to a Gene Watson show, and had trouble hearing the steel. I went to the sound man and asked him why. He said that he loved the steel and he showed me that the steel slider was all the way up. Corky Owens was the player and played really well, I think he could hear his amp so well that it sounded balanced to him, later he got louder out front. I think sometimes I just need to turn my amp down and step on the VP a little harder.

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 15 Dec 2005 5:29 am

When I used to "big shows" and i use the term loosely, The leg of my steel guitar used to become my "gentle persuader" heeheehee. had maybe two good experiences with big sound companies in twenty years.I could go on but would have to take more meds. Hey Dan how was vegas. Say hi to Jenny for me

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Dec 2005 8:52 am

Howard's description of what happened with Corky Owens is a common situation. Too many steelers put their speaker right next to themselves, pointed directly at their ears, not at the audience. This sounds great to the steeler, but doesn't even match the stage volume of the other instruments, much less project out to the house. No one else in the band does that. The vocalists and anyone else who is miked hear themselves through the mains and monitors, just like the house. The drummer sets the stage volume and usually has a loud personal monitor next to his ear to hear everything else. The guitar and bass amps are toward the back of the stage, and are set loud enough to hear over everything else from anywhere on stage. That usually makes them loud enough to project well to the house even without miking. That placement also helps them hear each other and strike a good balance, at least in the stage volume. Only the steeler sits there in his own little world hearing himself alone, without realizing he doesn't even match the stage volume, and with no clue how he sounds through the mains and monitors.

The steeler's speaker(s) should be at the back of the stage with the other guitar and bass speakers. That forces him to at least match the stage volume. An amp head keeps the controls sitting next to you, while your speaker is placed well behind. I understand the impetus to put your amp next to your ear, because you have to be able to hear yourself well to play the instrument in tune. But if you can't hear yourself in the main mix, what is the point of even being on stage? The steeler needs a personal monitor, like the drummer. The monitors at the front of the stage are pointed up for the standing vocalists and guitarists. The steeler is usually sitting down at the middle of the stage, so those front monitors go over his head and he can't hear them like everyone else. The steeler needs a monitor next him pointed at his ears, not his own speaker pointed at his ears. And it is a big mistake to have your own miked speaker turned up in your personal monitor mix. That completely defeats the purpose of a monitor. You need to hear exactly what is coming out of the mains. That will force you to play loud enough with your volume pedal to both hear yourself and match everyone else's volume. Then if you can't hear yourself, neither can the audience - and that's between you and the sound guy. Grab a mike and tell him to turn your amp mike up - and don't let him turn it up only in your monitor. If you suspect he does that, at the next break switch your mike cable with the lead guitar's without telling anyone. I guarantee you'll be able to hear yourself the next set.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 December 2005 at 08:58 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 15 Dec 2005 9:15 am

I ALWAYS have a personal monitor mix. The amp is in the back as Dave suggested. I hear a mis of my amp in the back and my monitor in the front. I also make sure that I have friends in the audience making sure that the steel can ve heard. Alot of sound man don't ubderstand that the steel is a primarily a lead instrument, not a backup instrument like a keyboard.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Dec 2005 10:45 am

Dan, you were probably one of 3 or 4 people who noticed the steel's absence. The younger crowd (probably the bulk of the audience) is perfectly content with just loud fuzz guitars, and loud bass and drums. Thanks to rock-n-roll, that's about all they can identify with or appreciate, anyway.

Dan Hatfield · Post by **Dan Hatfield** » 15 Dec 2005 10:57 am

Donny, it is sad, but you are totally correct. I have about decided that I must either stop attending concerts or sedate myself ahead of time to the point that it doesn't matter.

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 15 Dec 2005 11:50 am

Another possible scenario: The band members don't really know what is coming out of the mains. They can hear each other on stage just fine. If the guitar player is playing all the fills and you see the steel player also playing but you don't hear him, chances are they are not taking turns with the fills (don't play well together)and the sound man will most likely defer to the lead guitar. He has to choose one or the other. An all-lead-guitar sound will trump an all-steel-sound most of the time. Lead instrument band members that play well together and know when not to play make the sound mans job easy - he just sets levels and lets the band mix themselves.

Terry

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Dec 2005 1:44 pm

In the world I travel in the sound guys love the steel and they stopped wasting all there time getting a bass drum sound durring the sound check 15 years ago. I don't know whats going on in the corporate country scene though. It seems to me that the production values and ideas coming out of Nashville tend to be about 10 years behind LA and NY. Think that goofy Phil Collins cannon snare sound. George Straight was using it 10 years after it was considered rediculous in the pop/rock world. Can anybody say that "All my Ex's" was a better tune because of that absurdly loud and obtrusive snare sound ?

Bob

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 15 Dec 2005 1:52 pm

First, with all due respect, I kind of doubt loud "fuzz" guitars were prevalent in Joe Nichols' show, he's about as country as it gets. At least there are no "fuzz" guitars on any of his three albums. Second, I seriously doubt that professional musicians working for an artist as successful as Joe Nichols, including Mr. Crisp, would play in a situation where other players didn't play "well together." How many times do you think they have played the exact same set? Third, I can't imagine anyone trying to make Joe Nichols sound like Rascal Flats. Presumably, if someone booked Joe Nichols, they would want him to sound like... Joe Nichols.

So I'll offer two scenarios of my own, which, I believe, are realistic and have observed over the years:

1. Sound was provided by the house and was mixed by the house sound man, perhaps he was not familiar with the material. Possibly, he comes from a RnR background and does not know what a PSG should sound like. Maybe he knew how to mix and EQ drums, bass, guitar and vox, but not keys and steel.

2. If Mr. Nichols brings his own FOH engineer on tour, who is familiar with the material (which is generally the rule, not the exception), then I would either blame the lack of steel and keys in the mix on technical difficulties, the acoustics of the room, or the scenario that Howard Tate relayed. I've seen that happen before.

I would be curious to know if the musicians were even using stage amplifiers. Many acts have gone to just using pre amps and relying on either wedge or in-ear monitors (or a combination).

Steel is too prominent in Nichols' recorded material for him (or his management) to purposefully hire a FOH engineer that "hates" steel. At least I would hope.

Dan Hatfield · Post by **Dan Hatfield** » 15 Dec 2005 2:52 pm

Ben, I'm guessing that your #1 scenario is probably the correct one. The concert was at the Silverton Casino and I'm betting the house was supplying the sound. He was a young guy, probably in his 20's. Given that is the case, however, I think he should have been tutored by someone in Joe's entourage in how to mix the sound.
This surely doesn't explain the situation at the Mickey Gilly show, however. I see no excuse when they are doing five shows a week with the same material over and over again.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 15 Dec 2005 3:54 pm

AATW has the best soundman I've heard mix a band with steel in recent memory.
Also, you can hear the steel just fine at RR shows.
Of course, the steel is "germane to the plot" in these shows.
I heard the steel just fine at the Gretchen Wilson show, but struggled to hear a note of steel in the mains when Kenny Chesney came on 45 min later.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 15 Dec 2005 9:52 pm

Dan, I happen to be a young guy in my 20's also, so don't hold it against me (and a Show-Me native, by the way). Ha!

Actually, couple years ago, I got called to do FOH for a gal, can't think of her name right now, but she had a hit duet with Steve Warner, good singer, and a good guitar player. Has faded into obscurity in recent years. Dang, I'll remember her name at 2am. Anyway, the first thing I did was go buy a couple of her CDs to figure out what she was about. The show went great and the drummer was complimentary of my mix. I'm not a sound guy, but I know my way around boards and I know music.

There's a difference between taking pride in your work and simply collecting a paycheck. That's obviously true in all walks of life. I've always found that sound engineers that have spent time on the stage as a musician make better engineers.

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 16 Dec 2005 5:46 am

AATW has the best soundman I've heard mix a band with steel in recent memory.

I've seen'em twice and don't know if they travel with their own sound crew. The first time was at BillyBob's in '02 when Big Jim was still playing steel AND sax. The second was last year at an outdoor festival and Eddie Rivers was on steel. Both times the steel guitars was loud and clear.

I agree with everything that's been said about live sound guys (they're unemployed drummers)

cheers,
Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden guitars, 70's Fender Twin, etc.

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 16 Dec 2005 6:45 am

Howard's description of what happened with Corky Owens is a common situation. Too many steelers put their speaker right next to themselves, pointed directly at their ears, not at the audience.

Due respect, David, I'm betting this wasn't the case here. If Corky was miked (can't imagine Watson would do a show without a FOH guy) then having his amp pointed at himself is irrelevant.

Probably 99.9% of my gigs are miked and include a FOH guy. All he needs is proper gain from my signal to give him flexibility to move the slider up or down and set my level as needed. Unfortunately, I don't control what he does with my signal. If he's good, you'll hear me in the mains with no problem. If he's not, or hates steel, there's not a thing I can do about it.

In Corky's case, playing louder on stage wouldn't necessarily have helped if the FOH dude won't bring him up in the mains. And because Corky is working with fellow pros they're not going to appreciate him cranking his stage volume to compensate. Getting a good stage blend and sending the proper level to the board are part of being a pro.

Now, for non-miked gigs I completely agree that pointing your amp at your ear is going to give you a distorted impression of your level. And also lead to hearing loss over the years. (Huh? Say wha'?)

That will force you to play loud enough with your volume pedal to both hear yourself and match everyone else's volume. Then if you can't hear yourself, neither can the audience - and that's between you and the sound guy.

Only in the situation where the vocals are mixed by FOH and the instruments are not. If you do this when everything is miked, you'll be playing catch-up all night. You bring up your level, FOH moves the slider down. Believe me, I've tried it when saddled with a bad sound man. You will not win this battle. And if you do it with a pro FOH guy, he's going to instantly think you're a steel player who doesn't know what he's doing. On the other hand, if he's a pro FOH guy you're going to be miked anyway.

Playing a large venue without the instruments miked is tough. But I don't think that's what Dan encountered with Joe Nichols. I believe he just had a bad FOH mixer and nothing those guys did on stage would have fixed the problem. It's sad and becoming too common.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 Dec 2005 10:30 am

Well, you're partly right, Jeff, and I have no real idea of the situation with Corky. But I still maintain, that even in a situation with miked amps, it is not a good idea to have your amp next to your ear when the other guitars are playing much louder on stage, with their amps further back behind them. If your steel speaker is back there with them playing just as loud, the soundman can set all those guitar amp mike channels the same, and then your stage volume balance will be the same as the balance in the mains, with him doing nothing. You will control that and he can concentrate on the vocals. If he then cuts the steel volume in relation to the other guitars, he will at least have to realize to himself that he is manipulating the groups sound to the disadvantage of the steeler. And if he cares about steel, and sees your speaker has equal placement in the back line and he still has to push the steel level, he can let the steeler know he is free to crank it up, either with his foot, or at his amp.

Also, If the steel speaker is lined up with the other guitar amps, and facing the same way, and cranked to the same stage volume level, then at least the audience at front and center will hear what the group wants, just from the stage volume. And anyone who wants to hear the steeler better can go down front and hear the stage volume. If the steeler's speaker is cranked low and pointing at his ear, even hearing down front is hopeless. The simple fact is that to compete with the lead guitar at his level, you need to put your speaker where his is (albeit maybe on the opposite side of the stage) and crank it to the same level on stage.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 16 December 2005 at 11:37 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Dec 2005 10:03 pm

First off,
it IS a LOT more work to get drums sounding good,
and they have 10 mics to balance against each other
AND the other instruments, which only have one each, or maybe two.

It just takes longer to tune in drums,
not an efforty to slight or short change
the other guys on stage.
End of story.

There are certainly a percentage of guys who
parlayed
the sound system from their failed band
into a small business.

Many of them are rockers, who will take a countryish gig,
without really understanding country mixes.

But any nimrod who doesn't try to get a balanced blend
of what is being out out on stage,
should NOT be behind the board.

If he doesn't like and instrument, so doesn't mix it up,
he should not be mixing that band.

If somebody is going REALLY pear shaped on stage,
then mix them out for a bit, till they get it together.
There are rare instances where it IS kinder to the player
to mix them out for awhile.

I saw Emmit Roche play in Andora,
the sound guy bought a BIG system to support his drummer son...
no expirence neccesary, just throw money at the problem.
And the mix it yourself so you don't have to pay a sound man.. "Yeah that's the ticket."

But he was a total twit at mixing.
Thinking that making his son and the singer loud was doing good.

Emmet was barely able to hear his monitor.
I finally had to drag in the promoter, who would write the check to the band,
and WE leaned on the guy BIG TIME,
plus Emmet's wife helping translate etc..

Finally he budged. got Emmet's sound to a listenable level in monitor and FOH.
But the sound twit had been happy,
he could hear sonny boy's drums. So it must be right.

This was an extreme example of this syndrome.

Most guys I make a comment to just go and do it,
cause I can explain it in their terms
and they realise I know they are screwing up.

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 19 Dec 2005 7:19 am

Well, you're partly right, Jeff

As are you, David. So perhaps between us we're totally correct

Justin Griffith · Post by **Justin Griffith** » 19 Dec 2005 11:26 pm

Careful Michael G.

Justin

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Justin Griffith
D-10 Blanton 8X4, Gooodrich L-10K, Matchbox, Small cab. Session 500, Evans FET 500LV And new Walker seat

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 19 Dec 2005 11:55 pm

Ben, That was probably Anita Cochran. She is very good indeed.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 20 Dec 2005 10:11 am

My, my, the water's way too warm for me not to jump into the pool....

As a classically trained multi-instrumentalist with over thirty years behind a pedal steel guitar - who also happens to have owned a highly-respected regional sound company for the past 25 years, I have a bit of perspective on this issue and I offer the following points for general consideration

(1) (and most notablet) it is important to bear in mind one little known fact: In general, if a band doesn't bring their own mix engineer (and more often than not even if they DID!) the mixer got the job NOT because they were the best person available - or even competent at all - but because they were willing to work the absolutely ridiculous schedule and brutal working conditions for less money than anyone else. This is not a formula for excellence in anybody's universe.

(2) it does no good to sound check a steel player who then spends the rest of the night with their VP turned way down, whether due to a bad monitor mix, bad tuning, bad nerves (maybe BE was in the house and the guy was just petrified!!??) or some combination of all three - even a steel-friendly engineer can't possibly know if the steel volume in the PA is just set too low or if the steeler is laying in the weeds and about to really punch it. Experience helps here but then we are back to point number one above.

(3) Guitar amps - particularly those with more than one speaker - are extremely directional. I've done huge outdoor shows where the lead guitar (or other amplified instrument) was crushingly loud 100' away at the sound console, enough so that it never got added to the PA mix, but if you moved 15 degrees right or left of the mix position you couldn't hear it at all. It makes a big difference if the musicians are aware of this factor and take responsibility for pointing their amps away from the sound mix position - being aware of your amp's directional characteristics and where it is pointing is a part of being a true professional that few pickers grasp.

(3a) All speaker systems in general have directional characteristics that must be accomodated - if it's too loud or too quiet where you're sitting maybe the issue isn't with the sound guy at all but simply the location of your seat. I can't count the number of times that I was asked to turn it down by somebody who was sitting right in fromt of the speakers or to turn it up by someone who is sitting in the far back corner. Even in a small club the mix changes as you move about the room. If you are dissatisfied with the sound, move around and see if there is a sweet spot that pleases you somewhere else.

(4) Unlike the "good ole" days when we had to understand electrical and physical science well enough to build our own mixers and speaker cabs just to do a decent job, in this new age of Musicians Friend, Behringer and Mackie every bloke who's horny to be hip can be a "sound man" with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of how music works, how sound behaves in a given space (not to mention what sound even IS - not long ago I heard one guy in Alaska launch into a long discourse on the behavior of "molecules of sound"!) or simply how to play well with others.

(5) I have had young band engineers walk up to my system and start in with the kick drum, not happy until every available watt in the entire rig was in use pumping out that giant thudding sound, and then proceed to try to fit a band and vocal mix into what was left!!?? The only thing more certain than the fact that it can't possibly work that way is this young persons conviction that they are the only one present that knows what they are doing. Never mind that the guy standing next to them has been doing this stuff longer than they have been pooping.

(6) Oh yeah, the "making loads of money" thing - it is a well established fact that the fastest way to a small fortune is to start with a big one and start a sound company or recording studio. I'm pretty certain that Brad Sarno and others on the forum with similar experience will back me up here.

Lastly, I would venture that about 10% of audio folk are truly dedicated to good sounds and very, VERY good at what they do, regardless of the nature of the program, but they are also aware of the value of their services and don't accept abuse or food stamps (again, see point # 1 above).

Actually, there's a lot more where that came from, but that's MY problem....

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
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1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion