using hand signals to designate key of songs

Jack Musgrave · Post by **Jack Musgrave** » 27 Jun 2005 1:42 am

Most bands I have played with just shout out the keys like C-charlie, D-dog, E-echo, or something like that. Recently played with a group that mostly used hand signals to designate the chords. I really liked that, except I want to make sure that I am reading them properly. I know that 2 fingers up would be D and four up would be E, so I am asuming that C would be the starting point from which these are based. If that is the case, would 2 fingers down be B flat and three down A ? five down G and five up F ?[This message was edited by Jack Musgrave on 27 June 2005 at 02:48 AM.]

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 27 Jun 2005 2:03 am

I've never worked with bands that used signals but my understanding is----

1 finger up == 1 sharp: G
2 fingers up == 2 sharps: D
3 fingers up == 3 sharps: A
4 fingers up == 4 sharps: E
5 fingers up == 5 sharps: B

1 finger down == 1 flat: F
2 fingers down == 2 flats: Bb
3 fingers down == 3 flats: Eb
4 fingers down == 4 flats: Ab
5 fingers down == 5 flats: Db

Not sure about C---closed fist?

Larry King · Post by **Larry King** » 27 Jun 2005 4:48 am

Jack.....Jon's right, according to the fella who taught it to me who happens to be your friend John Terry...my son in law.

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 27 Jun 2005 5:38 am

Clever. I've never thought of this. Although, I usually know what key we're playing in.

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Carter D-10

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David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Jun 2005 5:44 am

Um...what about the keys of F# and C#? Don't they both have 5 sharps?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Jun 2005 5:51 am

Well, yes, David, they do both have 5 sharps, but F# also has a 6th sharp, and C# also has a 6th and a 7th... Are you having a senior moment my friend (or am I)??

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 27 Jun 2005 6:02 am

For the key of 'C', just make a 'C' shape with your thumb and forefinger.

I much prefer hand signals to the 'E for echo' system - 'two up', or 'three down' can't be misconstrued, and there's not so much shouting across the bandstand....

RR

Robbie Daniels · Post by **Robbie Daniels** » 27 Jun 2005 6:37 am

When I was doing road work that is the only way we did it, if we did not know the key beforehand. The number system is based on scales and # being up and b being down, nothing is C. With no indication we just knew it was C. Acutally it is a simple method and quite effective.

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Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 27 Jun 2005 6:52 am

I think Jean Shepard does it!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Jun 2005 7:57 am

Well, this is what has me confused, Jim. There are only 5 black notes in any octave. Now for the five sharp keys listed above, each sharp is an additional black note you have to use. But after 5, there are no further black notes. Okay, C# is the same thing as Db, so you can call the 5 sharps 5 flats instead. But that still leaves F# or Gb, call it either one, there are 5 of them, just as in C# and Db. These are not very common keys, but I guarantee, some singer will swear they can only sing some song in that key. Am I missing something, or what?

But the main problem with signing the number of sharps or flats, is that, while many horn players and keyboardists know the key signatures, very few guitarists do - in fact I would venture to say none I have ever played with. In fact, I have discovered that many guitarists don't even know what key a song is in, even though they may know all the chords. I have had singers and guitarists tell me the wrong key many times. Sure, what they told me was one of the chords in the song, but it was not the key. Stranger than friction. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 27 June 2005 at 08:57 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 27 Jun 2005 8:08 am

A good post-Jon's post is the way we always did it in a lot of bands. As most songs were in just a few keys, it was easy enough to use in a loud club. One finger up, G , three fingers up A , etc..one finger down F, two fingers down Bb, etc....al

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John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 27 Jun 2005 8:33 am

Yep, been there, done that. We used a clinched fist for "C"(no fingers).
About that D# stuff..... Anyone who wants you to do their song in D# deserves to have to walk around and tell everyone the key !!!
Bob Wills once said "A singer who can't move a song 1/2 step up or down for the benefit of the band, is not a singer".

Todd Pertll · Post by **Todd Pertll** » 27 Jun 2005 8:53 am

David,

There is also E# and B#. In the key of F# the seventh tone is E#. Although E# really is an F, you would notate it as an E# which would be easier to read on the staff. You can not have 2 notes is a scale with the same letter demonination.

Todd

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 27 Jun 2005 9:29 am

I've been in bands that announced the key to the audience, just in case someone wanted to sing along!

Moved to 'Music' section, as this is not a pedal steel-specific topic.

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My Blog

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 27 Jun 2005 9:46 am

I get hand signals from other musicians all the time...other drivers,too...

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Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Jun 2005 10:25 am

The jazz/club date guys in NYC often use fingers up to designate flat keys because they are so much more common. Fingers up means sharp keys with the singer song writer, rock, pop and country players around here.

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Bob
intonation help

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Jun 2005 10:49 am

I agree with John and Bob Wills that moving the key up or down a half step should be no big deal for a good singer on most songs. Although, in their defense, I have tried to sing Vince Gils' "Nobody Answers When I Call Her Name", and discovered that it so challenged my range that there really was only one key I could reach it in at both the bottom and top. Even a half step one way or the other pretty much nixed the song for me. Of course I'm not much of a singer, and have a short range. I don't think this happens very often for real singers.

But back to the F# thing and what Todd said. Maybe I'm still missing something. The point of the key signature is that you don't write out the sharps and flats in notation. If there is an F# in the key signature, in standard notation you just write an F note. The reader is supposed to know from the key signature that all Fs are sharped, unless there is a natural sign. Only the accidentals have sharps or flats written in. So In the key of F#, when you get to the E# (7th note of the major scale) you would not be expected to write in the sharp. So, I think I just answered my question. The key of F# has 6 sharps, but the E# is a white note, not a black note. So after the first 5 sharp keys, the additional sharps begin to fall on white notes. You have to remember that every time there is an E, you have to play an F. You can't write it as an F, because all Fs in that key are sharped. And what about double sharps and double flats, does all this have anything to do with them? I think you are beginning to see where my smattering of music theory runs out. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Jun 2005 10:53 am

By Jove, I think he's got it.

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 27 Jun 2005 11:58 am

"1 finger up == 1 sharp: G
2 fingers up == 2 sharps: D
3 fingers up == 3 sharps: A
4 fingers up == 4 sharps: E
5 fingers up == 5 sharps: B

1 finger down == 1 flat: F
2 fingers down == 2 flats: Bb
3 fingers down == 3 flats: Eb
4 fingers down == 4 flats: Ab
5 fingers down == 5 flats: Db"

What about minor keys? Every key signature is really two keys: C and Am, etc. How do you designate the tonic?
Cheers,
Alan Shank

ray qualls · Post by **ray qualls** » 27 Jun 2005 12:42 pm

Alan, just play 3 chord country songs!!

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Ray Qualls
President(KSGA)

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 27 Jun 2005 2:10 pm

"What about minor keys?"

Since the fingers represent the flats or sharps in a key signature of written music, the key signature of the relative Major should be used, along with some signal to indicate it's a minor.

For example for Dm , point one finger down (F is the relative Major) and put on a Miner's Hat.

Another example: Am

No fingers indicates C, but the hat changes it to the relative minor- Am.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 27 Jun 2005 2:19 pm

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 13 November 2005 at 12:48 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 27 Jun 2005 4:16 pm

Regarding Bob Hoffnar's observation about prevailing keys - horn players (sax, trumpet, etc.) can flat an open note easily by adding more tubing to the air column but have to do some figuring to sharp the note.

On the other hand, players of stringed instruments can easily sharp an open note by shortening the string but have to do some maneuvering to flat the note.

In general, you will find jazz and other horn music played in keys with flats (F, Bb, Eb, Ab, etc.) while string playing musicians tend to play in keys with sharps (G, D, A, E, etc.). Not many jazz tunes are in the key of B but plenty of country songs are for sure.

Piano players just have to work harder no matter whether sharps or flats. Steelers, on the other hand, just play.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 27 June 2005 at 05:19 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Jun 2005 5:45 pm

Quote: "... while many horn players and keyboardists know the key signatures, very few guitarists do - in fact I would venture to say none I have ever played with. In fact, I have discovered that many guitarists don't even know what key a song is in, even though they may know all the chords. I have had singers and guitarists tell me the wrong key many times. Sure, what they told me was one of the chords in the song, but it was not the key."

I'll attest to this, I've had it happen many times over the years. I'm a guitar player, and although I started with classical piano, I still don't read standard notation for guitar/steel very well. As is being discussed in another thread, the fact that most notes can be played in a lot of different places makes it more difficult. On piano, there is a one-to-one correspondence between the written note and the piano note. Very much not true for guitar/banjo/steel. But here's a joke for you:

Q: How do you get a guitar player to turn down?

A: Put sheet music in front of him.

I'd like to use this system - I consider the 'key shouting' method very bush league. Each key can be uniquely identified except F#/Gb, which can be considered either 6 sharps or 6 flats. What do you do there? Use a baseball catcher's sort of thing, flash five fingers then one? F# is probably my favorite key to sing in (but sometimes move it to G or E to suit the rest of the band).

In principle, one can consider each key in terms of sharps or flats:

C/(Db)b: 0 sharps or 12 flats
G/(Ab)b: 1 sharp or 11 flats
D/(Eb)b: 2 sharps or 10 flats
A/(Bb)b: 3 sharp or 9 flats
E/Fb: 4 sharps or 8 flats
B/Cb: 5 sharps or 7 flats
F#/Gb: 6 sharps or 6 flats
C#/Db: 7 sharps or 5 flats
G#/Ab: 8 sharps or 4 flats
D#/Eb: 9 sharps or 3 flats
A#/Bb: 10 sharps or 2 flats
E#/F: 11 sharps or 1 flat
B#/C: 12 sharps or 0 flats

Of course, there's no practical reason to use the form with more sharps/flats. Being mathematically oriented, I'd prefer a pure number system based on the 12 tones, but this isn't probably ever going to happen. Music theory seems to be inextricably stuck to the piano.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Jun 2005 6:32 pm

Okay, well as long as Bob H. and Dave G. have brought it up, let's look into why "horn keys" are flat, and "string keys" are sharp, and country, blues and rock tend to be in "guitar keys."

Over the centuries, the pitch of the classical orchestra kept rising. Eventually A was standardized at 440 hz, but it previously was down around what is now G. I'm not sure why the pitch krept up. Possibly strings and instruments improved so they could handle more string tension, which translated into more tone and volume. With stringed instruments, it was a simple matter just to keep tightening up the strings. The dimensions of the instruments did not have to change. However, the brass instruments were made to fixed dimensions that could not easily be changed without completely redesigning the machinary for making the instruments. All horns can be tuned a little flat or sharp (by moving the mouthpiece, or a tuning slide, etc.), but usually only about half a step. For whatever reason, the horns stayed the same. What were originally C instruments, now are Bb instruments, meaning that when a C is fingered, you are really playing a Bb. In addition to C instruments, some instruments were designed to have F as their home key. In other words when they fingered a C, they were playing an F. This was just a way to get good harmony voicings for things like alto and baritone sax. Their music was written in a different key than the "concert key." This was so that they would be fingering and reading in fairly normal keys. In other words, all horns finger a written C note as a C on their instrument, although they are really playing different concert pitches. So I can play a soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, or bass sax. When I read the music written for them, a written C is fingered exactly the same on each instrument, although those are different concert pitches. Once the pitch had risen a whole step, all the written music for those instruments had to be dropped a whole step. So the C horns now are Bb horns (their C is concert Bb), and the F horns are now Eb horns (their C is concert Eb). Apparently the flute is a C instrument - don't know how that happened. So that is how the horns ended up in weird keys - I think (okay this is all hearsay and speculation - I would love it if someone who knows better would confirm this or correct it).

The key of C is the easiest key on any instrument, because there are no sharps and flats to remember in the written music, and because the "white notes" are easier to finger than the sharps and flats. Therefore, Bb horns (tenor and soprano sax, clarinet, etc.) love Bb concert, because for them that is the key of C (it has nothing I can see that has to do with extending tubes to flatten the pitch - it is just an easy key to play in). Eb instruments (alto and bariton sax, etc.) like concert Eb, because that is the key of C for them. In a nutshell, that is why those flat keys are the "horn keys."

Violins, violas and cellos are tuned in fifths. Their strings are GDAE (I may have the order wrong?). They like those keys, so they can use the open strings. It happens that those keys are sharp keys (but I think that is coincidence, and has nothing directly to do with shortening strings).

I have no idea how guitars got tuned the way they are, but the obvious guitar keys are E, A, G, and D. Throw in the key of C, because everybody likes it for written music. You can see there is a lot of overlap between the fiddle keys and guitar keys. That is probably not an accident.

Put the fiddle and guitar keys together and you have the country keys, because those were the dominant instruments. Blues and rock is mostly guitar music, which relies heavily on E and A, for obvious reasons if you play a guitar.

So that's what I make of it all from a little knowledge from playing piano, sax and guitar, and with a heavy dose of speculation. If anyone knows more about this, I'd love to get better educated on it. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 27 June 2005 at 07:41 PM.]