The fire in the rock club

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 24 Feb 2003 8:41 am

If I go to a club and it catches fire because someone is careless with a cigarette, that would seem to fall within the realm of known and expected risk. However, it's an entirely different story when a club allows a pyrotechnic display to ignite what was obviously very flammable materials. Someone is accountable for this. While it was not intentional is was certainly neglegent -- downright ignorant -- on someone's part.
[This message was edited by Ron Page on 24 February 2003 at 08:43 AM.]

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 24 Feb 2003 9:03 am

I heard Great White had a similar problem just last week in a club. Stupidity sounds about right! I would hope all future commitments would be cancelled by club owners and out of respect,as I can't imagine anyone wanting to be in the same room with them. They must be held accountable. 96 fans dead, because of stupidity!

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 24 Feb 2003 10:27 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Don't they know the definition of the word accident?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, if they're using the word "accident" to describe a situation where somewhere sets off fireworks inside a building finished with a styrofoam ceiling, then I guess the answer to your question is NO.

I feel sympathy for all those who lost loved ones in this situation. But that doesn't change the DUH factor.
-John

Robbie Bossert · Post by **Robbie Bossert** » 24 Feb 2003 11:20 am

WEST WARWICK, R.I. (Feb. 24) - A day after family members visited the charred site of a deadly nightclub fire, the state attorney general said the club's owners have not answered questions from investigators about the blaze that killed at least 97.

State Attorney General Patrick Lynch said Monday that Jeffrey Derderian has not answered questions since Thursday night when The Station, which he owns with his brother, burned to the ground. He said Michael Derderian has never answered questions.

''There are questions I believe they could assist us with if they answered,'' he said on CBS' ''The Early Show.''

Lynch said the heavy metal group Great White, which returned to Los Angeles, has been cooperative. The band's pyrotechnics display was believed to be the cause of the fire.

An attorney for the band, Ed McPherson, said Monday that guitarist Ty Longley, missing since the blaze, had died in the fire.

''The band's a mess,'' McPherson said on ABC's ''Good Morning America.''

Great White was just getting into its first song at The Station late Thursday when sparks from their pyrotechnics apparently ignited foam tiles in the ceiling. Fire officials said the entire building was engulfed in three minutes.

Jeffrey Derderian, a Providence television reporter who had owned the club with his brother since 2000, spoke publicly Saturday, breaking down in tears as he talked about the victims. He said the band's use of pyrotechnics ''was a total shock to me.'' But he didn't take any questions.

The band insisted it had permission from The Station's owners to set off pyrotechnics.

On Sunday, under gray skies and rain, family member gathered at the site where they prayed and cried. They left behind flowers, photographs, poems and stuffed animals.

''These families are going through such a tragedy, such an emotional odyssey right now, and their hearts are broken, and they still don't know in many cases whether their loved one has been positively ID'd,'' Gov. Don Carcieri said.

It was Carcieri who announced Sunday that yet another body had been found in the rubble, bringing the death toll to 97.

''We've gone over the site and over the site and hopefully there are not many more,'' Carcieri said.

Only 42 of the victims had been identified as of Sunday. Eighty survivors of the fire remained hospitalized Sunday, about two dozen of them in critical condition.

After the families mourned privately, about 150 people crowded into a small chapel for a memorial service filled with song and prayer.

''We came to pray for the families and the victims,'' said Teresa McQuiggan, 76, of East Providence, who like many others at the service didn't know any of the victims. ''And last but not least, we're here to pray for the dead.''

Another memorial was planed for Monday night.

Meanwhile, investigators continued to pore over the rubble and interview witnesses and victims.

The governor said Sunday a moratorium on pyrotechnic displays had been issued for clubs in the state accommodating 50 to 300 people, and that 200 deputy fire marshals would fan out to inspect the sites beginning Monday.

Sunday was the first time the victims' parents, siblings and children were allowed to walk up to the charred rubble of nightclub. For days, they've lived with the video images of their relatives jammed in the doorway of the burning building, many screaming in terror as they struggled in vain to break free.

Several people were overcome with emotion. At least one had to be taken to an ambulance.

''There was, as one would expect, a lot of hugging, a lot of crying,'' Carcieri said.

A chain-link fence ringing the site was hung with mementos - from flowers to photographs. A photo collage titled ''Our Loving Mother'' lay among the hundreds of items. The smiling woman was blowing out her birthday cake in one picture; laughing, hugging her children in another.

''We have not given up hope,'' read a note from the family of a 30-year-old who remains missing.

''It's unbelievable,'' said James Morris, 36, who along with his two sons were among a steady stream of mourners who stopped by. ''It's just awful. They were all young guys in their 20s, early 30s.''

Morris, of Warwick, said he was supposed to attend the concert Thursday night, but didn't feel like going out. Six of his friends did go and haven't been heard from since.

AP-NY-02-24-03 1135EST

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

Jeremy Steele · Post by **Jeremy Steele** » 24 Feb 2003 12:55 pm

Here's the band's rider...not a word about pyrotechnics.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/doc_o_day/doc_o_day.shtml

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 24 Feb 2003 2:28 pm

It seems to me to be the club owners responsiblity. They clearly had other acts in the club in the recent past that had used pyro. Since they were the ones (the club) presenting the show I think the responsibilty is on their part to ASK the band IF they are going to use pyro and also make a stage inspection before the show goes on. I think the band also bears contributory negligence in not notifying the club in its rider of its intended use of pyro. This is a real human tragedy.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 24 February 2003 at 02:28 PM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 24 Feb 2003 4:16 pm

Indoor pyrotechnics should be banned...completely!

Absolutely. And immediately.

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 24 Feb 2003 4:46 pm

Just a note to Gene Jones.

A suggestion for the future...
If you quote Associated Press then give them credit for thier thoughts comments.. It will release you from the "tasteless" remarks comment previously posted.

I found your insight as a firefighter/inspector interesting...

A tragedy....

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Tim Harr - Carter D-10 8 & 9 - Troy Cook Jr Band ~ Stardust Nashville Recording Artist

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 24 Feb 2003 4:57 pm

What do you call this?

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Feb 2003 5:17 pm

Insecurity?

At any rate, I suspect the club may have had styrofoam, or plastic ceiling tiles. I've seen these used in some clubs, and they sometimes paint them black. They are highly flammable when exposed to flames, as are most plastics, and not nearly as fire-resistant as the regular acoustic tiles, which are a composite fiber. There are also fiberglass tiles which have a thin plastic surface. Same deal...once they melt, they become quite flammable.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 24 Feb 2003 7:36 pm

I would also add my vote to completely and immediately ban all pyrotecnics in indoor venues. I don't think this is an over reaction with 97 people dead.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 24 Feb 2003 8:14 pm

Regarding the original point of this post -- there are various standards of culpability depending upon whether you're talking about criminal liability or civil liability.

Criminal liability usually requires something more than pure negligent behavior. That is, simple negligent behavior is not usually criminal behavior. However, starting with reckless behavior and on down to premeditation -- those types of behavior are usually considered criminal.

So, for behavior to be criminal, it doesn't have to be deliberate or premeditated. Recklessness will suffice in some cases. For example, knowingly violating a safety code could be considered criminally reckless behavior.

Scenario -- a band uses pyrotechnics in a small club resulting (apparently) in a horrific fire that kills at least 96 people. Is this the result of criminal behavior? Who knows? An investigation and possibly a trial might give us the answers to that questions.

Personally, I would find it very unlikely that anyone is found to be criminally liable in this case. Pyrotechnics are used relatively often.

However, I don't think we really need to discuss the reasons why there should be indictments if there is evidence of criminal behavior uncovered by the investigation.

We all know that there will at least be a civil suit filed here. Of course, what we're talking about in this case is negligence -- was there a breach of reasonable care by any of the parties. Any time 96 people die as the result of a fire started by a pyrotechnic display in a small club, then most likely somebody is negligent. I predict that both the club owner and the band will be found negligent.

The club owner because he probably should not have allowed the pyrotechnics and because it was quite obvious from looking at those horrible videos that there were not enough suitable emergency exits in the place for that many people. On the video I saw, one set of doors even opened inward and that's how so many people were trapped. And, where were the fire extinguishers? The club owner whether he knew of the pyrotechnics or not should have had ample fire fighting equipment available.

The band because they knew of should have known of the propensity for pyrotechnics to be dangerous, yet they chose to use them anyway.

Why prosecute someone or sue the pants off somebody because of something like this? Again, I think it is obvious to everybody that one of the reasons is to prevent something like this from happening again.

If the fire had been the result of a cigarette could there be a civil suit? You bet! In fact, in that case, if it is found that somebody threw a cigarette down with a reckless disregard for the safety of others, then that person could even be held criminally liable. That fact that something (what ever it is) is known to be dangerous in no way absolves the user of that thing from criminal or civil liability if that thing should cause damage. The standard is reasonable care for civil liability and at least recklessness (usually) for criminal liability.

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 24 February 2003 at 08:24 PM.]

Dave Horch · Post by **Dave Horch** » 24 Feb 2003 10:29 pm

Kevin - I'm sorta with you, but not all the way.

Hey kids - many of us can say "been there", as in, young-ish and stupid.

The band wants to put on an impressive show ($$). The club owner wants to sell tickets and booze. Sound familiar? Been there? I’ve played packed houses like this before. I’ll bet you have too.

As much "fun" as this has been in the past, perhaps it's time to get serious about clubs, bands and fire regulations. I know - those damned flash pots in the '70's were loaded and exploded by roadies who had no real idea what the eff they were doing. On stage, I always was nervous about it. But hey, Rock and Roll, right?

And sorry, friend Mike P, there must be some price to pay for this horrific negligence. My guess is that the band management is effed for many reasons (no pyro in the rider), and the club owners may be effed too. Either way, such a tragedy.

Best to all, -Dave

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Mullen (See! No "S") D-10 
<a href=http://www.davidhorch.com/music>Photo page</a>

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 25 Feb 2003 1:27 pm

I agree that there needs to be some accountability, but there's been talk of indicting the band members on 2nd degree murder charges, and I think that's going way too far.

Anyway, here is the latest uypdate from the associated press.
_______________________________________________________

WEST WARWICK, R.I. (Feb. 25) - Members of the band Great White have been subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury that will investigate the nightclub fire that killed 97 people last week, authorities said Tuesday.

The grand jury will convene Wednesday, law enforcement authorities said on the condition of anonymity. One official also said investigators have searched the home of one of the club's owners.

The developments came one day after thousands turned out to honor the dead at three separate memorial services.

Investigators have been trying to determine who is to blame for Thursday's inferno, which was apparently sparked by the band's pyrotechnics and swept through the one-story, wooden building in just three minutes. The band has said it received approval to use the special effects, but the club's owners have denied giving permission.

Attorney General Patrick Lynch said the owners, brothers Jeffrey and Michael Derderian, have not answered investigators' questions since the fire.

''I believe the Derderians might be able to provide some answers that may assist all of us,'' Lynch said late Monday.

Kathleen Hagerty, an attorney for the Derderians, said the brothers provided information to West Warwick police and have arranged to share information with the attorney general.

The pyrotechnics apparently set fire to soundproofing behind and above the stage. State law bars flammable acoustic material like polyurethane foam from the walls of gathering spaces like bars.

''If it was (polyurethane), then the governor's going to want an answer to the question, 'Why was it there?''' said Gov. Don Carcieri's spokesman, Jeff Neal.

Paul Vanner, who described himself as a sound engineer and stage manager at the club, told The Boston Globe and the Boston Herald he warned Michael Derderian three months ago that pyrotechnics were being used by bands in the club and the practice should be stopped.

''I told them, 'I don't know those dudes from (expletive)','' Vanner said. ''They are lighting fires in your club. Tomorrow they're gone. Tomorrow we're here. I can't guarantee safety in your club.''

Soundproofing experts who have seen video of the disaster say they believe the material used at the Station was polyurethane foam, a commonly used, inexpensive alternative to fire-resistant panels many experts prefer.

''It's a common mistake many people make, not evaluating their materials,'' said P.J. Nash, a national soundproofing distributor in San Diego. ''Polyurethane foam is extremely flammable, and if you breathe that smoke, it's going to knock you out in a minute.''

A polyurethane panel typically costs about $150 while a melamine panel, which experts say withstands heat, sells for nearly $250.

The club passed a fire inspection Dec. 31, but it wasn't clear if the soundproofing material was checked or would normally be looked at during a routine inspection. Fire Chief Charles Hall declined to comment on the investigation.

Authorities have begun interviewing employees at nightclubs in other states where employees say Great White used pyrotechnics without notice.

At the memorials, the focus was on the victims.

''This state is like a close-knit family,'' said Tricia Colon, a middle school teacher who attended Monday night's service at the West Warwick Civic Center. ''If you don't know someone who died or was hurt in the fire, you know somebody who knows somebody. It's that closeness that's going to pull everyone through this.''

It was standing-room-only at the 2,000-seat center, just a few miles from the charred ruins of the Station club. In nearby Warwick, about 400 people sang hymns and prayed for the victims at an interfaith service. And hundreds more attended a prayer service in Pawtucket.

Among the crowd at the civic center were school bus drivers who had worked with victim Robert Reisner, 29, and drove his bus to the service.

''There is no doubt in my mind that he was letting people out of the club in front of him,'' Danny Manns recalled. ''He was a gentleman.''

At St. Gregory the Great Church in Warwick, one pastor asked grieving families to hold up pictures of their lost relatives so mourners can ''know for a moment those you loved.''

''It's true that some good may come from this disaster, but the event itself is only tragic and will never make sense,'' said the Rev. John E. Holt of the Rhode Island Council of Churches. He saluted families for their ''quiet courage.''

The governor ordered state agencies to fly the Rhode Island state flag at half-staff. Carcieri also asked President Bush to declare the fire a state disaster, which would make Rhode Island eligible for federal aid.

About 80 survivors of the blaze remained hospitalized Monday; about half were listed in critical condition.

AP-NY-02-25-03 1353EST

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 25 Feb 2003 2:07 pm

It sounds like the club may have been in violation with the flamable polyurethane panels. The building seemed to burn down unusually fast.

Louie Hallford · Post by **Louie Hallford** » 25 Feb 2003 5:45 pm

A deliberate unsafe act killing people has a very good chance of being legally criminal in most states,I would think. This was a high risk act in the environment for which it was done.

What if they had chosen to light a bucket full of gasoline for effects and the same thing had happened, would it be considered criminal? Just another absurd thought.

I would guess the manufacturer of the product should also be getting his attorneys lined up also.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 25 Feb 2003 6:11 pm

Easy does it...

The only way a this would involve a murder charge is if arson were suspected. This wasn't something someone consciously planned or thought to do. Rather, it was something that happened as a result of someone "not thinking", i.e. negligence.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems "criminally negligent homicide" or "manslaughter" is as far as this could go.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 25 Feb 2003 7:17 pm

Here is a picture of another band at the same club using the same kind of pyro's.Dosn't look to safe to me.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 25 Feb 2003 7:46 pm

I agree with Ron. A murder charge seems highly unlikely, but manslaughter or other lesser criminal homicide charge is definitely not out of the question. It'll be interesting to see what the investigation turns up.

Robbie Bossert · Post by **Robbie Bossert** » 26 Feb 2003 10:07 am

Latest reports indicate that the band is cooperating fully. However, the owners are not offering any information. As the posted picture shows, this club has a history of allowing bands to use pyro fx. They let it go for so long and now it's finally caught up with them in a very tragic way.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 26 Feb 2003 10:25 am

I heard that the doors opened INWARD, therefore not allowing peope to get out when they pushed agains them. I thought that all doors in public buildings had to open outward, so as to help prevent this kind of tragedy.

If they don't, they should.

I also think there should be sprinkler system installed in all public buildings and mandatory annual inspectons to make sure they are working properly.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 26 Feb 2003 10:32 pm

Mike, in a video I saw on TV, the doors did appear to open inward -- it was a truly horrible sight to see all the people piled up in a great big tangle at the doors unable to move while the smoke billowed out around them. Others on the outside were trying to pull people out, but were having a tough time as the victims were wedged so tightly.

And, I believe that all newer commercial buildings over a certain size are required to have sprinklers etc. However (although I don't know the specifics in this case), the building in question was probably very old and did not have the modern safety equipment etc.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 26 Feb 2003 11:40 pm

That building was over 50 years old and had a grandfather clause on safety. So it didn't have sprinklers or proper exits or all the things that modern buildings have for safety. They say that it cost to much to update those old buildings. Now they know how much it cost not to update!

Robbie Bossert · Post by **Robbie Bossert** » 27 Feb 2003 11:34 am

Alvin, I think you summed it up!