spacing and slant angle geometry concept

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 14 Feb 2003 9:29 am

Don't forget to facter scale length into to the equation. Short scale seems to work best for me, I would never use a steel that was wider at different ends.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 14 Feb 2003 10:12 am

Several people have built steels with equal spacing at both ends and that makes sense to me. Joaquin's last guitar(built by Chas Smith)was 3/8ths at both ends making the strings totally parallel all the way up the neck.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 14 Feb 2003 10:21 am

IS THIS TECHY KNOWLEDGE........going to improve your playing any? Practice.....

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 14 Feb 2003 11:26 am

Y'all might find this helpful .... kinda explains why your ears are the key in slant bar style ....

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/002695.html

I wrote this out about a year ago .. but we have some new guys that might get a "thing or two" from it.

Ray ... I'm beginnin' to take these "techy" comments personal

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 11:48 AM.]

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 14 Feb 2003 12:17 pm

I would never use a steel that was wider at different ends.

The Rick frying pan (for one) string spacing is wider on one end...although in reverse of what Scott was proposing.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 14 Feb 2003 12:26 pm

Hi Rick, Could you please explain what "JI and ET" stand for. I was thinking of doing just what you did with the tuner, but you saved me from having to do it. Did you use a short scale neck? John Ely has also talked about this reality of steel playing. I myself just tune the open strings and go from there, does changing the cents here and there make a noticeable difference in the playability of the instrument? On a dark stage my boss has a light on either side that both come on when a string is in tune. I was under the impression that the tempered nature of tuning was built into the tuners automatically?

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 14 Feb 2003 1:02 pm

JI is Just Intonation ... a tuning system based on the harmonic overtones produced by the tonic note. Sometimes referred to as a "Beatless" tuning.

ET is Equal Tempermenet .... a "tempered" tuning system where the notes in an octave are equally divided into 12 equal semitones (100 cents apart).

Pianos, spanish guitars ... "fixed" instruments ... primarily use ET to enable them to play any chords in any key ... with consistant outcomes.

Steel guitars, harmonicas, symphonic instruments, singers .... primarily use JI.

The major drawback of JI is that you cannot have the 2nd, 5th and 6th played together and remain "Beatless". I know alot of folks like the E13/9 and either go ET or just avoid certain combinations because of this "clashing".

Jesse, all the great non-pedal players that you have mentioned lately use/used JI ...

Some electronic tuners now offer presets for JI, ET, mean tone etc ... but most guitar tuners are ET. Personally, I set my C (hi) using a tuner ... then use harmonics to tune the rest ... but it is handy to know the JI deviations so you can use a tuner on stage, noisey environmets, etc...

Did you use a short scale neck

These JI deviations from ET (listed in the thread I pointed to) are independent of scale length, string spacing, etc ...

The cents concept is an ET "thing" (so are frets for that matter),hence my descriptions given as ... "deviations from ET"

I don't want another "JI vs ET" war ... plenty of that over in the Pedal Steel archieves ... but Steel guitar is one of the few polyphonic instruments that can play in JI in any key by using micro-adjustments with the bar ... guided by your EAR.... why give that advantage up ???

Just my opinions...

PS I added some stuff to my website ... let the Hula Girl load ... she's worth it

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 07:45 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 14 Feb 2003 1:45 pm

Rick, you really got me thinking I need to study this topic alot deeper than I have. I might have to e-mail you about this further on down the road. I hate to think that I'm not tuning my steels up as good as they can be. I have read posts from the pedal steelers about using harmonics verses just the tuners, it is a very interesting subject. Thanks...

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 14 Feb 2003 2:12 pm

Regarding the tuning issue... Electronic tuners and fancy jargon don't really do much for you. All you need to do is slap that lapsteel up against your dominant ear. Get those strings "in tune" as close as you can hear. Then throw it on your lap and fiddle around with some open-string and "fretted" chords you think you might end up playing. If those come out sounding funky then tweak it a little until they sound okay.

Being a little off tuning-wise isn't going to hurt your single string work or your two-note harmonies. There's no frets, so you just make the fine adjustments with the bar as you play.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 14 Feb 2003 2:27 pm

Jeff, you're startin' to sound like Ray

For those of us who like fancy jargon and physics .... here is some good bathroom reading ...

This guy could "lose" the noisy backround but it's explained well...
http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/tuning.html

Now for the serious student ...
http://www.smt.ucsb.edu/mto/issues/mto.98.4.4/mto.98.4.4.scholtz.html

Oh, while I'm at it ... for those who think there are only 12 notes per octave ... check this out

(a sub-page from the first link) ... http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/Octave.html

This stuff sure isn't "new-fangled" nor is it unimportant ...

Will it make up for:

... a lack of ear/hand/eye coordination
... having a deaf ear
... a lack of imagination
... being creatively challenged

NO

Can it be a substitute for hard work and determination ...

NO WAY

But if you are passionate about something, don't you want to know as much as you can about it ...

I do

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 03:04 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 14 Feb 2003 2:56 pm

Funny thing about tuning I've noted over the years when not in a band and busking solo on the streets at night in downtown San Diego. I've been tuning string instruments since I was a child and I can do a pretty good job by ear most of the time if I'm not tired. I noticed that when I'm busking late into the night (8 to 10 hrs non stop) and just using my ear to tune up, I don't make as much money as when I use the tuner thru out the night? Some of my music buddies who have hung out with me during these times are just as baffled as I am. I sound tuned up, but the tuner shows how much in cents I get out when I get tired. The point here is that it sounds O.K. being a little out, but the public gets affected some how and they don't tip as well. Also, I think it's best to let your muscular memory work off of the same reference points as much as possible, less tension and fatigue on the long haul.

Rick, you web page is great looking now! I asked Jeff this question before but didn't get an answer, what is the scooped out sound you guys are getting on your steels and what would be a good example to listen to.

P.S. Ray, thanks for those tunes to listen to about the moan sound from the Ricky. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 14 February 2003 at 03:02 PM.]

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 14 Feb 2003 3:02 pm

u sure there ain't a little post hoc going on there? naw, just kidding Jesse

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 14 Feb 2003 3:04 pm

duh, what the heck is a "post hoc" jeff?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Feb 2003 3:08 pm

While it makes some sense from a pure logic standpoint, I don't think I could get used to a steel guitar that was wider at the nut than at the bridge. Having them equal is as far as I could go.

As for a formula for making the bar slants the same everywhere... I think that all of the strings would have to converge to a single point at the bridge. That's highly impractical.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 14 Feb 2003 3:10 pm

Jesse, it's the area on a pig rear of the hind legs.

...sorry about not replying to your earlier question...I'm still trying to put the sound to words.[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 14 February 2003 at 03:15 PM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 14 Feb 2003 3:21 pm

"hoc" .. thats what we call spit around here

Jesse, I call a tone with lots of bass, just the right amount of treble and not much middle .... a scooped/hollow sound. Get some of the Ionas from B. Clarke !!!

I use to set my mids (135 watt twin) on around 8 (as JB recommends in his instructional material) ...

Then I started listenin' to Bruce Clark's restorations and wondered why I couldn't get a sound like Dick McIntire, Andy Iona, etc...

I started hangin' around the pedal steel section and the electronics section and started hearin' their views on the Mids.

I have a graphic EQ (my ONLY effect) and dropped the 800 Hz just about out ... man what a difference.

Bass = 10
Treble = 4-5
Middle = 2
Cut at 800 Hz
Ricky Frypan .. scooped ... ala electric Sol Hoopii

Bass = 10
Treble = 1-2
Middle = 7-8
Ricky Bakelite .... lush ... ala JB

These are just my opinions and my own terminology...

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 04:20 PM.]

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 14 Feb 2003 3:36 pm

That's really interesting stuff, Rick.
When I was starting out, Bobby Ingano would kindly tell me that mids have no place in Hawaiian steel (that is, as far as Rogers/AhSee/HewLen/Keli'i-style playing goes)--to this day, I turn the mids way down, if not off completely. But I would have to disagree and say that JB does achieve the scooped out sound rather nicely in many of his recordings...although perhaps not as extreme as did McIntire.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 14 Feb 2003 4:14 pm

Rick, I've been thinking of using an e.q. pedal with a tube screamer set up as a clean volume boost to beef up the sound of my Magnatones thru my fender champ or deluxe. I already set the amps up with no treble and full bass, along with the heavier gauged strings I use, it sounds pretty good. Is Dick McIntire's sound considered an extreme "scooped out" tone? I like Dick's tone alot.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 14 Feb 2003 4:37 pm

Again, in my opinion .... the McIntire tone I hear on those CDs is a more full bodied sound ...

I have some early electric Sol Hoopii that a fellow 30's fan sent me .... and those on Toomba and the Iona CDs have more of that hollow thing goin' on than the DMs.

Jeff, I agree that JB can get any tone he wants, at any time ... but his later recordings (By Request, for example) are far more "dark" than say ... his stuff with Rex Allen.

Of course I'm partial to the "Bakelite years"

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 04:40 PM.]

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 14 Feb 2003 6:16 pm

Hi Rick The "scooped" sound I think you are talking about seems to me to be the natural tone from a really good early frypan, like the one Hal Smith has which once belonged to Dick McIntyre. I have been told by qutie a few old timers (older than me that is) that Dick would go to the Rickenbacher factory and play as bunch of frypans to see which ones he wanted. He had quite a few.
Bill

Page Wood · Post by **Page Wood** » 14 Feb 2003 8:27 pm

I may be out of line here, but I'm amazed by this entire discussion. If you're interested in deadly accurate pitch, go play a synth. The MAIN attraction of slide guitar for me (and theremin or fretless bass) is that wonderful emotive INACCURACY . I love the sound of slants BECAUSE they are slighty off! Yes, you should strive for proper pitch, but we got glisses and vibratos here- there's a reason these things don't have frets !!!

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 14 Feb 2003 8:59 pm

Personally, I find it comforting to know that there are more than 700 pitches in an octave ... increases the probability that I may actually be on one.

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