Is there an A-Z jazz course for C6?

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 12 Jan 2002 11:13 am

Hey Rick... yeah, long time

I'd agree. Last night I had a steeling friend come over to trade some C6 ideas, and it was very productive. A couple of points that came up last night:
- The Hal Leonard series "Ultimate Jazz Fake Book" is way-out-in-front the best fake book for Standards that I've ever seen. The chords are complete, correct, and legal. It includes the words too. If I could only own one fake book, this would be the one. It leans more toward the standards than the obscure.
- For figuring out new tunes from charts, I find the "open neck" concept is the best for me. First you establish what note over which chord..
(for instance - Stella By Starlight...to start, you need a Em7b5 with an A note on top.. so that A is the 11th tone. So, find a m7b5 chord at the open neck with the 11th on top, and slide it up the neck until it's an Am7b5, and Voila...
 or is that Viola... (?)
(In this example, pedals 6 & 7, at the 7th fret, strings 3-8)
- a good scale syllabus is a big help for developing single string lines.
- Understanding the implications of the various sorts of II-V-I progressions is mandatory. Discovering the many many variations on V chords is fun.
- Don't wait 'till you sound like Buddy to go find someone to play with. Do it now.

Some miscalooneyous thoughts....
-John

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Jan 2002 11:24 am

- The Hal Leonard series "Ultimate Jazz Fake Book" is way-out-in-front the best fake book for Standards that I've ever seen. The chords are complete, correct, and legal. It includes the words too. If I could only own one fake book, this would be the one. It leans more toward the standards than the obscure.

I have it. It's fantastic. Highly recommended. It's 47.50 and worth it.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 12 Jan 2002 4:53 pm

In this example, pedals 6 & 7, at the 7th fret, strings 3-8

John, Technically, without string 4, which is the 9th. However, it would most likely sound fine to include the 9th, in terms of playing the melody. Just nitpicking, 'cause I have nothing better to do until the Jets playoff game comes on. They better win.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 12 Jan 2002 8:40 pm

They better win

Yeech!! 'nuff said.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 13 Jan 2002 11:45 am

Nitpick away, my friend

Actually, you have raised a very interesting point concerning the nature of the ninth tone in half-diminished (m7b5) chords.
During the earlier days of jazz, the ninth tone in half diminished chords was most commonly b9. If you listen to swing-era instrumentalists, they most commonly employ the b9. In terms of scale theory, they use the Locrian, or 7th mode of the major scale. For example, an A half diminished (m7b5) chord would come from the Bb major scale:
Am7b5 Locrian mode of Bb major
or "A Locrian"
1-----------------------3--------|
2--------------------------3--5--|
3--0--------------2--3-----------|
4--------------3-----------------|
5--0-----2--3--------------------|
6--0(6---------------------------|
7--------------------------------|
8--0-----------------------------|
9--------------------------------|
10-------------------------------|

If you were listening to Erroll Garner, or Joe Pass, or Oscar Peterson, that's likely the scale they would use; that's the era they are from. And, Jeff is right, the natural ninth would clash.
However, later on in jazz history, people started to employ the natural ninth tone in the chords and scales for a half-diminished chord. If you listen to Herbie Hancock, or Bill Evans, they do it all the time. Some people's ears do not accept the natural ninth in a half diminished chord. Myself, I'm kind of in the middle. I use a sparingly few single note runs that employ the natural ninth.. I stick mostly with the above-mentioned Locrian mode. I do, however, use the natural ninth tone in half-diminished chord voicings alot (like the previously posted example for Stella).
Those that use the natural ninth in half diminished chords use a different scale. For this chord, you would use the 6th mode of the Melodic Minor scale. For the example of A half diminished, it would be derived from the C melodic minor scale:

Half diminished mode of the
C melodic minor scale (also known
as Locrian #2)
1----------------3--------
2-------------------3--5--
3----------2--3-----------
4----2--3-----------------
5--2----------------------
6-------------------------
7-------------------------
8-------------------------
9-------------------------
10------------------------

So, it's a matter of personal taste. It's nice to have choices. Later, when you get into chords like 7#9 , there are numerous choices of scales to use for them. And, correspondingly, numerous ways to voice the chord, expressing different elements according to taste.
For an example, listen to two different piano pickers play "Autumn Leaves"... Erroll Garner on his "Concert by the Sea" album (all Locrian mode) versus Bill Evans on his "Portraits in Jazz" album (mostly the half diminished or Locrian #2 mode).
For anyone to whom these albums are inaccessible, I might recommend dredging up the old post Jerry Gleason and I did last year (?), posting 4 bar segments of "autumn leaves". I distinctly remember ripping off a nice Locrian #2 move from Bill Evans and posting it as such... while the rest of the half diminished chords were generally handled with Locrian #1.
You may use pockets on the neck to play these scales that are different than my examples; that's fine.
Thus endeth another chapter in the Steel Guitar Forum Jazz Theory Series

-John
 *whew*
[This message was edited by John Steele on 13 January 2002 at 12:01 PM.]

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 13 Jan 2002 12:23 pm

John, Great post. Thank you, Don

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 13 Jan 2002 5:08 pm

Just to add a bit, Am7b5, Cm6, and F9 chords are spelled virtually the same. The main difference is the F note in the F9, which is often thrown on top of the Am7b5 or Cm6 to add a nifty arrangement flourish. Likewise, Am7b5(9), Cm6(Maj7), and F9#11 are equally related, and in fact, the F9#11 is commonly found in many modern arrangements of standards. And I'm pretty sure the melodic minor scale, in this case C melodic minor, will play fine over all of them. And you would play all three of those chords at the zero or 12th fret with pedals 6,7, strings 4-8, and with string 9 for the F note. Also, I'm not familiar with an Am7b5b9. I'll have to play it and see what it sounds like. An A7b5b9 is something I am familar with, and know how to use. This other one, I just wonder how you would apply it. What kind of progressions, transitions, etc. that it would sound good in.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 13 January 2002 at 05:56 PM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 14 Jan 2002 1:26 am

Ok you guys are freakin' me out

Man I know what the book should be named.
"Pedal Steel Jazz Our Way" by Jeff L. & John S.
There ya go guys get to work on it. I can't think of two more knowledgable guys that; yes I do know personally; that could put this project on the map. Oh Well of Course Herb....but that man is busy with too many other deals....ah....ha. And my other brother Jim Loessberg(already metioned by Wayne) has stuff that is just incredible as he is such a talent in every aspect of the pedal steel; but his knowledge of Jazz and beebop far superseeds anything I've seen....well you do have Gary Carpenter...but he don't have any courses...Like Jim does...ah...ha.
Great thread guys and I'm glad I stopped in to read it today....ha.....but I still don't understand.....but I love the theory of it......
Ricky

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 14 Jan 2002 8:56 am

Thanks Ricky. I gotta say, though, that John knows WAY, WAY more than I do. I appreciate you lumping me in with him, but there is no comparison. I know just enough to get myself in trouble, but not enough, unfortunately, to get myself out.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 14 Jan 2002 9:14 am

By the way, a good example of how to apply the 9#11 chord would be in a pop standard like Moon River.

<pre>Cmaj9 Am7 F9#11 Cmaj7/E
Moon River, wider than a mile

Cmaj7 F9#11 Cmaj7/E Dm6 E7b9
I'm crossing you in style, some day

Am C9 Fmaj9 Bb9#11(13)
Old dream maker, you heart breaker</pre>

I don't know the exact chords and I'm not listening to the song (is it a Dm6 or Bm7b5, can't tell without hearing it with the bass note. What the hey, do it one way, and then the other. That's the whole point, right?), but you can basically arrange it anyway you want. The point is to see how you can apply the 9#11. It is a great sound, as long as it doesn't bother you, as John pointed out.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 14 January 2002 at 09:18 AM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 14 Jan 2002 10:27 am

Haha, Ricky, you're very kind, buddy... but my steel chops ain't what they could be. An alternate title in my case would be "If I Could Play The Steel, This Is What I'd Do..."

Jeff, as far as Am7b5b9, I've never seen it notated that way. They usually just say Am7b5, and they leave the choice of b9 or natural 9 up to you.
And Ricky, yeah, it sounds like alot of gobbledegook until you look at it really closely. Being a guy that pretty much sticks with the first (Locrian) mode, the basic quick rule I use in my head is: "half diminished chords come from the major scale a half tone up". Eg: Am7b5 comes from Bb major, and Em7b5 comes from F major, etc. etc.
-John
-John

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 14 Jan 2002 3:26 pm

Just a few thoughts on the subject. When I was learning jazz (on the guitar), there were two key elements that really helped me. The first was to learn as many inversions of a given chord as possible so that I could play it when and where I wanted without having to make an unmusical leap. The second and probably most enlightening factor came when I rented a video tape by Joe Pass called “The Blue Side of Jazz.” Using a standard blues progression, he shows how he makes MUSIC with these chords. Not only did I learn something, but seeing a master like Joe play was a great pleasure.
Now that I’m taking up the steel, I’m frustrated by not being able to move any given note in a chord a half step in either direction. I would have to have a hundred pedals to do on the steel what my fingers do on guitar.
Also, what differentiates jazz from other genres is not principally the harmonic structure. It’s the rhythm. My advice would be to learn a fairly simple head of a blues and to play along with the recording. Tap your foot on the second and fourth beats, not the first and second, and you’ll really feel the difference between how jazz players swing and Western Swing.

------------------
Dave

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 14 Jan 2002 9:33 pm

I’m frustrated by not being able to move any given note in a chord a half step in either direction. I would have to have a hundred pedals to do on the steel what my fingers do on guitar.

You cover a lot of points, so I'll tackle 'em one at a time.

1. To play a lot of altered stuff, you need a full knee lever complement. Besides lowering string 3 a 1/2 tone, which is standard, you also need to lower string 4 a 1/2 tone, and raise string 4 a 1/2 tone. Less important, but useful, you should also raise string 3 a 1/2 tone, either with a pedal, or a split with the lever that lowers string 3 and floor pedal 7. This will give you loads of extra inversions.

2. You probably are raising string 7 a 1/2 tone. You don't really need to lower it a 1/2, or do anything to string 8. When you want to move those strings, you do it by moving over a fret, and raising or lowering strings 3,4,5,6 using the floors and knees.

3. This will give you loads of flexibility. What it IS NOT is intuitive. You can't just look at your fingers like on piano and guitar, and see where you are going. You are right about that. But with some patience, you would discover hundreds of inversions, if you have a full knee lever complement.

4. Keep in mind that horn and reed players have NO chord abilities. Steel is WAY, WAY closer to guitar than anything else.

5. On the plus side, you have tremendous range in notes, much greater than guitar. Guitar has 2 bass strings in a sense, the 5th and 6th string. Steel has 4 bass strings, the 7,8,9,10. And strings 9 and 10 give you true bass resonance. This means that, at any given fret, you have a huge variety of voicings and dynamics, depending on which string you use under your chord. Far more than on guitar.

6. You have octaves. Strings 2,6, and 3,7 and 4,8. Since you have all those 1/2 tone pulls available on the top strings, it's easy to create dissonances, which are needed for many jazz voicings, some of which have a double dissonance. This is harder to get on guitar, and there is less availability. On steel, it's intuitive in places. Pick an octave, hit a 1/2 tone knee, there it is.

7. There are far more notes. Most guitar voicings in jazz are 4-note voicings. On C6, you can play many 6-note voicings, if you choose, and alter them easily with 1/2 tone moves.

8. If you choose, you can mix in very tight voicings, since some strings, with and without pedal moves, are only a second apart. Guitar strings are a fourth, except for the B string. The ability to mix in a tight voicing with a wide one, and do it easily, is one of the signature dynamics of playing C6 chords.

Bottom line, it's not the same as playing guitar. Then again, playing guitar is not the same as playing piano. It's one thing to apply some guitar voicings to it. It's another to dynamically try to play it like guitar. You can't. Anymore than you can play guitar like piano.

That's it. Hopefully it doesn't sound preachy. Regards.

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 14 Jan 2002 11:59 pm

I agree that learning to apply jazz chords to the 12 bar blues format is a great way to understand how chords substitute for one another. There is a wonderful jazz guitar book that I highly recomend by a guitarist name Warren Nunes called "Blues Blues". Several of the C6th turnarounds I've posted have come from that book. In this book Nunes takes the twelve bar format and plays it in about a dozen or more ways using very cool, outside chord melodies. I'll try to find the time to post an entire 12 bar piece from that book soon. It'll be a project. I loaned that book out years ago and never got it back but I do remember some of it. It helped me immensely.
I also agree with Jeff's defense of the C6th neck but I must agree that the guitar is much easier to play. Having said that, I'd like to point out that playing both instruments is helpful for both of them. Does that make sense?

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 15 Jan 2002 12:17 am

Thanks, Jeff, for the advice. I want to add those changes to my guitar. Have you any advice on which levers to use or not to use? I use to have a Universal and some of the pedals and levers were pulling so much that it was tough to play. Now, I have a D-10 and the action is soooo smooth in comparison. And I don't have hold that Eb lever all the time! I don't want to add a second set of levers now, but add the changes to the existing ones.
Thanks,
Dave

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 15 Jan 2002 12:24 am

BTW, when I hear what Reece does with his 12 string lap guitar, I realize that there is far more to it than pedals. Oh! to have that technique!
Dave

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 15 Jan 2002 5:59 am

Dave, before any suggestions, I need to know how many knee levers you have that will work on your C6 neck?

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 15 Jan 2002 1:21 pm

Jeff, I've got 5. LKL raises the E strings on the E9; LKV lowers the B on the E9; LKR lowers the E's on the E9; RKL raises the F#s a half step on the E9 and lowers the 3rd string on the C6; and RKL lowers the D and D#(with a half stop)strings on the E9.
Thanks,
Dave

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 15 Jan 2002 5:00 pm

Dave,
The only knee lever you have that operates on the C6 is your RKL, which lowers string 3, a standard change for the last 40 years. Based on your post, this is all you have; the rest are all E9 changes. There is nothing wrong with that, and some incredible western swing has been played over the decades with just what you have. HOWEVER, based on your post, you are looking for capabilities to readily perform chord alterations in a way consistent with what you can do on guitar, and consistent with modern jazz thinking. IMO, it would very hard to do those things without more than one knee lever working on C6. The only suggestion I can offer is to change pedal 4 to raise string 4 a 1/2 tone (if it isn't already doing this.) You need to keep pedals 5,6,7,8 the way they are, as well as youe RKL. Sorry I can't offer more help. If you can manage it, I would buy a D-10 that has at least four (4) knee levers that work on C6, so that you can play the stuff I think you want to play. Of course, you can also explore what your basic pedal arrangement offers for now, which is a real lot. But in the end, if you are looking for the things you described in your initial post, I think you'll want those extra knee levers. Regards.

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 16 Jan 2002 1:09 am

For those of you following this thread you might get a little kick out of this.Yeaterday I mentioned that years ago I loaned out a book called "Blues Blues" to someone(?) and never got it back. Well, guess what, today a got an email from John McClung telling me that HE was the one I loaned it to about 15 years ago and he apologized for keeping it and wanted my address to send it back. Is that crazy or what?

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 16 Jan 2002 3:00 am

Great Story Don....man that's waaaay cool.
Ricky

Jim Loessberg · Post by **Jim Loessberg** » 17 Jan 2002 12:27 am

Thanks Wayne and Ricky for the kind words!

Here's my idea.

If you already know a good bit of music theory and know your way around your instrument, get all the volumes of the Real Book and forget all other printed material for the time being.

Then, get every Buddy Emmons jazz record ever made and learn the heads and solos of the tunes that appeal to you. Try to hear the changes by ear and if you get stuck refer to your Real Books for the changes to most standards (sometimes the recordings and the Real Book changes will not be the same but it is a good starting place).

Next, find all the other recorded steel guitar jazz material you can and learn it too. My recommendations for this are Paul Franklin's "Just Pickin'", and all of Doug Jernigan's vinyl albums (note: the Paul Franklin and Doug Jernigan albums are not exclusively jazz albums but all have some jazz cuts) plus the "Jazz on 10" which I think is on tape and CD. There are lots of other good jazz steel players like Maurice Anderson, etc. so you should never have a shortage of material. Any players you choose to learn from will be helpful but I think it is essential to study Buddy Emmons.

Next, go buy some Charlie Parker records and maybe a Charlie Parker Omni book. Now learn as many Parker heads as possible. Some are extremely easy and some are so difficult I will never be able to play them. Most are somewhere in between and while challenging, are suitable for a standard C6th tuning.

Now, go buy some records of other jazz players -- as many different ones as you can find. The more you listen, the more you should absorb. My recommendation for players whose styles easily translate to steel are Chet Baker, Clifford Brown, Cannonball Adderly, Oscar Peterson, Barney Kessel and Hank Garland. Notice that trumpet, sax, piano and guitar are represented.

I'm not recommending against Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, John Coletrane, etc. You want to learn from them too. Especially their tunes that have become standards.

It's just that the players from the first list tend to play melodically, and in a more linear fashion.

At this point, printed material might be used as a supplement to help you understand what you are playing but I don't think
jazz -- or any other music -- can be learned from books.

Learn with you ears and not with your eyes!

Best wishes,

Jim

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 17 Jan 2002 12:16 pm

get every Buddy Emmons jazz record ever made and learn the heads and solos

That's easy for you to say, pal!

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 17 Jan 2002 5:42 pm

Amen to that, Jim! Some guys can do that (not me). He mentions the Parker Omnibook. Can you imagine the work that went into that! Even with software that can slow down a recording without lowering the pitch, that would be a lifetime project for me.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 17 Jan 2002 8:13 pm

Jim L., That's ok for tonight, what can I work on tomorrow?