C6 in all stringsets

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha Everybody,

Just wanted to share something that has really been helping my growth on steel... Playing all the versions of C6 on all stringsets has REALLY been great for my development. It's a tremendous workout for my brain in mapping out C6 better.

C6 is my main tuning. I started out on 6 string C6, and can still happily gig on a 6 string.

Then I learned 8 string C6 from Doug Jernigan, who taught me both the High G and High D (Buddy Emmons's C6) version.

I also have a 7 string, which I tune to C6 with a High G.

I also have a spare 8 string, which I tune to Mike Neers's version of 8 string C6.

What I've found is that playing all these different version of C6 has really forced me to know my way around C6. Each stringset has its "go to" patterns. When their options are not available, then I'm forced to learn what IS available. It's been really great journey of self guided learning and discovery.

Here are all the versions of C6 I use:

6 string:
E
C
A
G
E
C

7 string:
G
E
C
A
G
E
C

8 string (normal)
G
E
C
A
G
E
C
A (this can also be a Bb to get sounds that Gabby Pahinui used)

8 string (Buddy Emmons, re-entrant High D). Great for improvisation to get linear ideas. I use this the least, admittedly, but it's there when I have licks worked up.
D
E
C
A
G
E
C
A

8 string (Mike Neer). I put this tuning on my Fender Dual Professional, which I tuned to Kayton Roberts's tunings. Kayton used C6/A7 with 2 low A's. I elected to not use that low A on the 8th string, and instead put a G on the 8th. To make it C6/A7 just requires tuning the low C to C#. That low G is more pragmatic than the extreme low A in the first octave of the piano that Kayton used. I don't need to make "moo goes the cow" sounds that often.
E
C
A
G
E
C
A (this can also be a Bb to get sounds that Gabby Pahinui used)
G

When I transcribe something by ear off the record, it's very helpful to use the tuning the player is using. Then once I got it down, I figure out how to play it on the other versions of C6.

It may seem trivial, or overkill, but this method of self guided learning is VERY effective, because it forces me to use my ear more than my eye. I'm starting to recognize the sounds and their positions in relation to each other, rather than relying on visual orientation of the strings. It's not easy, and it's a slow process, but very rewarding.

For example, if I learn a Bernie Ka'ai solo using a High G, I try to play it with a 6 string. The notes are still there, but it forces you to use different string sets. That process is VERY valuable.

I just transcribed Gabby Pahinui's steel playing on Yellow Roses off of Ry Cooder's Chicken Skin Album. Gabby is likely using an 8 String C6 with a low Bb. Now I'm figuring out how to do play it on 7 string C6 with a High G. You can't get all the notes, but that's not the point. The point is to navigate the melody and play with as much language and feel as possible given the steel in your hands.

When you don't have the exact same strings available, other options present themselves, and I find happy accidents and discoveries that I wouldn't have had I stuck to the same layout.

This is a long post, but I think there is a lot of value to this, and wanted to share it. Ultimately we're all self guided learners, and this is an effective and simple approach. You just have to do the work.

Knowing ONE tuning deeply is much more beneficial and pragmatic than using muscle memory and repetition to play specific songs in various tunings. Although, that is also fun and rewarding in many ways.

There are no solutions, only tradeoffs. Everything is valid.

Happy practicing and playing!

[Bill Leff]

I might be wrong but I don’t think Gabby’s tuning had the high G. More likely the Jules Ah See C13 or similar.

I played Yellow Roses last week at a jam with a Ric B6 tuned Bb C E G A C E. I omitted Gabby’s intro due to only having six strings.

The tuning I used was a compromise but it worked. Having the low Bb is essential in this tune in my opinion.

[Pete Martin]

Mike, it’s cool to have all those guitars to play around on! How you getting on with the new Fenders?

[Michael Kiese]

I might be wrong but I don’t think Gabby’s tuning had the high G. More likely the Jules Ah See C13 or similar.

I played Yellow Roses last week at a jam with a Ric B6 tuned Bb C E G A C E. I omitted Gabby’s intro due to only having six strings.

The tuning I used was a compromise but it worked. Having the low Bb is essential in this tune in my opinion.

Aloha Bill,

Notice how I chose my words...

In the section of tunings I use, I wrote "A (this can also be a Bb to get sounds that Gabby Pahinui used)" in the tuning sections.

I also wrote "Gabby is likely using an 8 String C6 with a low Bb."

There was no specific mention that he used a High G with a low Bb. Gabby had all kinds of steels, and he made them all work. I'm sure he was no stranger to C6 with a High E, or High G. He was likely equally adept at both, and I made no claim asserting either as his tuning.

I don't think Gabby was stuck/married to string sets and tunings. Knowing him, he could make anything sound good. If it had strings, he could play it, and tune it however he wanted. Anybody I've met who's still alive and knew Gabby, said as such. There's a fair amount of consensus on that.

I agree with you that the low Bb is essential to get that sound Gabby is getting on that recording Yellow Roses.

But knowing Gabby, if he were only playing six string C6, he'd still be able to play Yellow Roses and it would still sound great, Bb or no Bb. That's the key insight that I'm personally striving for... Uncle Bobby Ingano's the same way. Just use what you have in front of you and figure it out.

Every version of C6 is valid, and they all have something to offer and teach you. The joy is in the discovery.

Enjoy, and happy practicing!

[Michael Kiese]

Mike, it’s cool to have all those guitars to play around on! How you getting on with the new Fenders?

Aloha Pete!

I completely took apart both the T8 and D8, recharged the mags on all trap pups.

The Dual pro is all strung up. The Custom is sitting in its case, waiting to be strung up.

The Dual pro sounds great. I have to change out pots, I think they are close to kaput. Practice worthy, but not gig ready.

[Michael Kiese]

I might be wrong but I don’t think Gabby’s tuning had the high G. More likely the Jules Ah See C13 or similar.

Aloha Bill,

Just had a laugh with Uncle Bobby. I think you'll enjoy it.

I told him that I finally got around to learning Yellow Roses, and I was surprised that the original is in the key of B. I wondered if Gabby kept his Steel in C, or if he tuned down 1/2 step.

This is Uncle Bobby's reply:

"A lot of musicians who played with Gabby knew his rules. The first rule was: "Whatever Gabby's instruments was tune to, the whole band had to tune their guitars to him. That's why a lot of Gabby's recordings were either a little sharp or a little flat."

So there you go. Gabby was 100% an ear player. lol.

The Key of the recording is in B because that's the closest key to Gabby's Steel.

He tuned everything to relative pitch and just went for it. He had a great ear. I doubt it mattered much to him what a steel was tuned to. He'd just adjust his thinking and make it work. High E, High G, probably made no difference to him.

It's not like any of this stuff was cataloged. Gabby just played. I think that's a good thing to strive for.

Enjoy!

[Mike Neer]

I fully endorse this approach. Believe it or not, even going between 6 and 8 string C6 really can throw me for a loop. It's really all about getting in the right frame of mind. But having that deep familiarity with C6 (or any tuning you choose) just results in much better command of the fretboard and expands the possibilities of being able to play almost anything. The subtle variations of tweaking a string or two can do wonders to give you new sounds (e.g., C6/A7, C13, etc).

Gabby played Yellow Roses (and I think Chloe too, I'd have to check my notes) on the recording from Chicken Skin Music in C13: E C A G E C Bb G (high to low). I played this tuning for quite a while until I switched to Jules C13, and then back again, but now with an A for string 7. I demonstrated my push bending technique to get those 13th chords. The symmetry of simple 8-string C6, whether with a high E or high G string, can't be beat for improvisation IMO. It really frees your brain up to just not have to think so much about positions and just focus on what you are hearing internally before you play it. I find that requires my 100% attention.

[Michael Kiese]

I fully endorse this approach. Believe it or not, even going between 6 and 8 string C6 really can throw me for a loop. It's really all about getting in the right frame of mind. But having that deep familiarity with C6 (or any tuning you choose) just results in much better command of the fretboard and expands the possibilities of being able to play almost anything. The subtle variations of tweaking a string or two can do wonders to give you new sounds (e.g., C6/A7, C13, etc).

Gabby played Yellow Roses (and I think Chloe too, I'd have to check my notes) on the recording from Chicken Skin Music in C13: E C A G E C Bb G. I played this tuning for quite a while until I switched to Jules C13, and then back again, but now with an A for string 7. I demonstrated my push bending technique to get those 13th chords. The symmetry of simple 8-string C6, whether with a high E or high G string, can't be beat for improvisation IMO. It really frees your brain up to just not have to think so much about positions and just focus on what you are hearing internally before you play it. I find that requires my 100% attention.

Aloha Mike,

Mahalo for the vote of confidence.

*note: I always spell out my tunings from bottom to top. Just my preference. I can certainly read it top to bottom, but I find that much less helpful, especially when the high E is not the root. I like to know what's going on in the foundation of the tuning, then I relate the top strings to that.

I decided to put your GACEGACE on my Fender Dual Professional D8, which I tuned to Kayton Roberts's tunings. I elected to use your tuning because I didn't need that low A1 that Kayton used, and if I wanted to tune it to C6/A7, all I have to do is tune the bottom C up a half step to C#. Haven't messed with his F9 yet, as I've discovered a lot of Kayton's PSG sounds are happening on the C6/A7 neck.

So I've been using that Dual Pro to practice your "A Different Slant" material, which I have found very helpful. I was familiar with a lot of it, but there were more than a few happy golden nuggets in there that I'm engraining into my playing. Mahalo nui loa for your contribution for the posterity of all steel players.

The interesting thing is that I'm used to ACEGACEG. Your version just removes the top G and puts it 2 octaves lower on the bottom string. The beautiful part of your tuning is that it's still regular 6 string C6 on top, but with 2 lower notes added. Figuring out how to use those 2 lower notes has been a great brain workout, especially when I switch to 7 string C6: CEGACEG, and normal 8 string C6. Each string set gives you options, and when you have them all available to you, you use the ones you are most comfortable with, and forget about other options. So when you limit yourself by using a 7 string, 6 string, or different versions of 8 string, you are forced to hunt for the ones you haven't engrained yet.

That has been a difficult, yet rewarding process of self guided learning. It's producing results slowly but surely. Actually, the funny thing about switching between steels that provides the most difficulty in adjustment is the string spacing. Different steels have different string spacing, so that throws off slants. But even that has its own rewards, because you're always using your ear, and not relying on muscle memory.

As for Gabby's tuning, I'm pretty sure that's what he's using on that album as well. Yes, he did play Chloe as well. Gabby also played most of the steel parts on Slack Key and Steel Guitar Vol 2. I always laugh at the naming system for tunings. There is utility in naming and cataloging things, but the name doesn't describe what's actually going on. I just think of what you call C13 as a C6 with a low Bb underneath, because that's what is really going on. pluck that low b7 right before the I chord goes to the IV chord. So it goes [ I / I7 / | IV / / / ]. Or use it to make the V chord a juicy V7. That's literally the use case of that low Bb. Don't overthink it. Just an easy way to turn whatever straight bar major chord you're on into a Dominant version of the same chord. That's it. lol. Calling it C13 just makes it sound way more academic and therefore somehow unreachable. Normally a C13 would have the b7 within the meat of the chord, not below the lowest root note.

Gabby didn't think like that. He couldn't tell you any music theory at all, but the sounds were ingrained into him. He KNEW the sounds and how they went together. He was 100% pragmatism, application, ear, and feel. "Feet" Rogers was the same way. They always thought simply, but had great ears and musical instincts.

Gabby was just a natural. You put an instrument in his hands, and out comes beautiful music. He had a few rules for playing with him: Everybody in the band always had to tune to HIS guitar, know the melody of the song before you step on stage with him, and don't ask questions. lol. That's coming from Uncle Bobby and stories from old timers when he was young.

I know you're a high E guy. You like the 3rd on top of your maj6 tuning. I like it too, but I also like the 5th on top.

If I'm playing in a Country Band, or playing Western Swing/Jazz tunes, that high G really comes in handy. But when I'm playing in a Hawaiian Band, I grab my 6 string C6 because it forces me to play less, and get more mileage out of what I do play. I may start bringing a 7 string C6 to Hawaiian gigs just because that's what Uncle Bobby uses.

The problem with playing an 8 string steel is that you want to use all the strings because they're there. When you have less strings, you're forced to play less, and play more musically. That in itself is a great lifelong lesson.

I told Uncle Bobby when I was first picking up the steel "Hey Uncle Bobby, you know what I noticed? When you play steel on Hawaiian music, you really only need the top 4 strings. You can even get by with just the top 3." To which he replied "That's EXACTLY RIGHT!" lol.

So yeah, I think all the incarnations and string sets of C6 are all valid, and they all have something to teach you.

I've been practicing along to your different slant YouTube vids. There's A LOT of talking in between the demonstrations, so I've been adding chapter markers, lol.

Enjoy!

[Michael Kiese]

I demonstrated my push bending technique to get those 13th chords. The symmetry of simple 8-string C6, whether with a high E or high G string, can't be beat for improvisation IMO. It really frees your brain up to just not have to think so much about positions and just focus on what you are hearing internally before you play it. I find that requires my 100% attention.

Aloha Mike,

Your push bending technique is great, as well as all the slants on different string groups.

You're SPOT ON when you say it requires your 100% attention.

I somehow found myself as the house band steel player for a weekly country jam. I bring my 8 string frypan to those performances.

It's kinda pissing me off that the band plays so damn loud. The onstage volume is so ridiculously loud, that I cannot even hear myself. I had my guitar amp kicked back and placed right in front of me. It was at 100% volume, and there were times that I thought it was off because I couldn't hear it.

Oh, the amp was ON and the speakers were pointed directly at my face, but it's just that everything ELSE was so loud, that it drowned out my amp.

That band is full of people from their mid 50's to mid 70's. I'm the youngest dude by far. They're so used to cranking their volumes their whole lives that they're DEAF.

It's near impossible to get your slants in tune if you can't hear yourself.

The fact that a lot of country bands play so damn loud is, in my opinion, a contributing factor why PSG won out for that genre of steel playing. When the band plays so loud that you can't hear yourself, you have a much better chance of playing in tune with a straight bar placed in the right spot on the strings, as long as you're pressing the correct pedals and levers.

Another reason why I love Hawaiian music...no drummers! Everybody is playing Acoustic Instruments, and you're the only electric guitar player! lol. Anytime you see a drumset in any band, you know they're going to play loud.

It's 100% possible to get most of the quintessential country PSG sounds on straight steel. But when bands play so damn loud, you can't hear yourself. Slants and intonation go right out the window.

No bueno, no megusta.

I'm going to gingerly and tactfully make some suggestions, but if they keep playing too loud, I'm going to bounce.

[Pete Martin]

The fact that a lot of country bands play so damn loud is, in my opinion, a contributing factor why PSG won out for that genre of steel playing.

I played fiddle in lots of country bands over the years. I quit doing that after a New Years gig where it was so loud, I was playing thru a Fender Twin with JBLs 5 feet away at my ear level with the master and channel volume both on 10, and still couldn’t hear myself. I had ringing ears and headaches for 2 days following that.

Mike K, you need to find a Western Swing band. I’ve played in several, and (I think it’s because they are jazz players) they play at a comfortable volume level. They also listen to each other a lot better in my opinion.

[Andy Volk]

Michael,
What are you using for string gauges for the A and G strings?
Thanks

[Michael Kiese]

The fact that a lot of country bands play so damn loud is, in my opinion, a contributing factor why PSG won out for that genre of steel playing.

I played fiddle in lots of country bands over the years. I quit doing that after a New Years gig where it was so loud, I was playing thru a Fender Twin with JBLs 5 feet away at my ear level with the master and channel volume both on 10, and still couldn’t hear myself. I had ringing ears and headaches for 2 days following that.

Mike K, you need to find a Western Swing band. I’ve played in several, and (I think it’s because they are jazz players) they play at a comfortable volume level. They also listen to each other a lot better in my opinion.

Aloha Pete,

I'm glad to hear to hear I'm not the only one experiencing this.

I'll keep playing with this house band as long as I can keep working up useful Country vocabulary on C6. I'm convinced that most of the Country Steel sounds exist on straight steel.

Most people out there in society don't even know what a steel guitar is. But they know the SOUND. Younger people go "Spongebob!" and Older people go "I haven't heard that sound in years!".

I played a gig at Tiki's Bar and Grill in Waikiki, and this nice old haole lady walked up to me and said "You make that thing sound SO BEAUTIFUL, what is that, a baby 'Ukulele?"

The vast amount of the listening audience doesn't even know what a steel guitar is, much less have an opinion of which is better: Lap or pedal steel?

The slate has literally been wiped clean.

As far as playing with a good band that plays at comfortable and pleasing volume levels, I lead a Hawaiian Band called "Pu'uloa". www.hawaiianband.com. We're the house band of a Tiki Bar in Richmond, VA, and we play every Friday. We also get booked for private gigs here and there.

Always great to hear from you!

[Michael Kiese]

Michael,
What are you using for string gauges for the A and G strings?
Thanks

Aloha Andy,

My 8 string Frypan was my very first steel, and it was made by a sweet gentleman named Jan VanderDonck who lived in the Netherlands. I take that one out to the Country Houseband performances. It's 24.5" scale, which is the same as an A25.

Here are my gauges for my C6/A6/B11 set. These allow me to go between C6, A6, and B11 and keep all the strings within 20-25 ftlbs of tension. So I guess you can call this my "Hawaiian" string set for C6.

G4- 10
E4 - 12
C4 - 14
A3 - 18p
G3 - 22w
E3 - 26w
C3 - 32w
A2 - 40w

Here are my gauges for straight C6 if I just plan to stick to C6. Notice the Re-entrant high d. That's Buddy Emmons's tuning for C6. I put a 12 on there to keep the D from being too flubby. It's serviceable, and I can tune it to a G as well.

D4 - 12 plain
E4 - 12 plain
C4 - 15 plain
A3 - 18 plain
G3 - 22w semi-flats
E3 - 26w semi-flats
C3 - 34w semi-flats
A2 - 40w semi-flats

My method for figuring out my string sets was literally using a string tension calculator. I'd create custom sets with a calculator, and then try them out. Through trial and error, I figured out what I like best. The string tension calculator was essential in helping me hone down the process very efficiently.

No matter what steel I use, the scale length, or tuning, I try to keep a balanced set with all the strings from 20-25 ftlbs of force. To me, that's where the sweet spot is.

I always use GHS plain strings, and GHS Rollerwounds (semi flats).

Enjoy!

[Allan Revich]

Wow! I think what you’re doing is fantastic. A lot of work and experimentation, but you’re guaranteed to know the C6 fretboard even better than the back of your hand!

I find myself bouncing around way too much with tuning experiments to actually get good on any of them. Currently working very hard on my self-discipline to stick to G on 6-string and G6 on 7-string.

I like what you’re doing though as it combines the experimental fun of trying different tunings, with the discipline of sticking with one good tuning.

[Michael Kiese]

Wow! I think what you’re doing is fantastic. A lot of work and experimentation, but you’re guaranteed to know the C6 fretboard even better than the back of your hand!

I find myself bouncing around way too much with tuning experiments to actually get good on any of them. Currently working very hard on my self-discipline to stick to G on 6-string and G6 on 7-string.

I like what you’re doing though as it combines the experimental fun of trying different tunings, with the discipline of sticking with one good tuning.

Aloha Allan,

I'm glad that you found value in the sharing of my self guided learning experience. Playing C6 on 6, 7, and 8 string (and slightly different versions of it) is a slow and steady process that is producing results.

The world needs more steel guitar players, and I'm happy to share what is working for me.

Happy practicing!

[Andy Volk]

Thanks kindly, Michael. Very illuminating thread!