Can both E9 and C6 tuning be achieved on most S10's?

[John Gutowski]

Hi everyone, first I'd just like to thank everyone for all of the great information here - I'm new to this world and I've spent a considerable amount of time poking around on this forum over the last few weeks. Without having set hands on a PSG myself just yet, I feel I've already learned a lot (with much much more to go).

I'm looking for my very first pedal steel (I'm currently between a Doug Earnest Encore and a Mullen Discovery), I have just always loved the sound, and one thing I'm not sure about is this: Can most S10's be configured either E9 or C6? Could I swap between these configurations without too much fuss?

The reason I ask, is that I'm primarily a composer and recording engineer - I don't plan on gigging with the PSG ever (well, never say never I guess). I had originally planned on going straight to E9 (as this seems to be the standard configuration for S10's, great for learning standards, lots of literature etc) but I've also learned that C6 tuning (C-F-A-C-E-G-A-C-E-G) seems very much aligned with what I've come to know in the guitar world as "Math Rock" tuning (F-A-C-G-C-E) which spells out a F major 9 chord - this tuning is known for its stacked intervals, making it easy to play powerful phrases, especially with tapping or sliding techniques (seems kind of perfect for PSG) - I'm excited to try it out. I enjoy all kinds of music and I'm curious as to what I can get out of a PSG that's a bit more "experimental" - using various effect pedals and processors to get some neat sounds going.

I'm looking forward to reaching out to the builders on this for specifics on how this might work with their guitars, but figured I'd also ask the question here to see if anyone has thoughts on it. Please feel free to chime in if you have any words of advice for someone brand new to this world, thank you so much!

Best,
John Gutowski

[Bill McCloskey]

I would look into 12 string universal setups (E9/B6 copedent) which will give you both E9 and C6 voicings on one unified tuning, especially if you are a composer.

[Bob Hoffnar]

John,
Welcome to the world of pedalsteel. I highly recommend spending some time with a player. I can do a quick facetime session with you to show you what you are dealing with.

As far as swapping tunings on a single neck goes. It is possible but will take about a week of serious mechanical labor as well as a relearning of how to play. I don't think it is possible on the guitars you have mentioned. Although Excel does make a convertible single neck that works very well.

You can also get a U12 if you which might be an option if you need the low strings.

I'll send you a note to get in touch. You are sorta starting in the middle.

[Dennis Detweiler]

E9/C6, I'd say no. E9/B6 yes, but not completely. I play U-12 E9/B6. If I was trying to combine them on S-10 I would remove the E9th 9th string (D) and install the low B as string number 9 and install a G# as 10th string. Then, apply the E9/B6 floor and knee lever copedent. This would get me the top 10 strings of the U-12. That's my approach, but others may have another approach.

[Richard Sinkler]

Not likely very easily. You'd be better served with a 12 string E9/B6 Universal. It takes a while to re-rod a guitar from one tuning to the other, get pedal and knee lever travels adjusted. I do have a Dekley S10 with 3 pedals and 4 knee levers that I converted into a C6 practice guitar. It can be done, but you can't have all the changes you see these days on C6 (mostly on D10 guitars) with 5 pedals and 4 to 5 levers. This is what I put on my S10:
I've had the normal D10 pedal 8 changes on my D10 LKL since 1999, and it works well there. But in recent years, I RARELY use the P8 changes on strings 9 & 10, so on my D10, that will go back down to pedal 8 and the knee lever will just raise strings 3 & 7 to C#. I will make that change to my S10 too, eliminating pedal 8 changes altogether.

[tab]
............LKL.......LKR........1..........2..........3.........RKL............RKR
D
E...................................................F
C.............................................................D............B.............C#
A........................Bb................................B
G....................................F#
E..................................................D#
C........C#
A
F..........E.........................F#
C.........A........................D

[/tab]

[scott murray]

I’d recommend getting a D10, especially if you’re not planning to take it out of the house

a U12 might work for you but there’s a reason most pros never made the switch from D10. putting C6 on a S10 isn’t ideal, mainly because they are designed for E9. C6 traditionally uses 5 pedals, and most players are using 4 or 5 knee levers as well

[Bill McCloskey]

Scott Murray is an excellent player and extremely knowledgeable about the instrument. However there have been a number of great Universal players including Junior Knight, Reece Anderson, David Wright, Joe Wright, Zane Beck, Bill Stafford, Julian Tharpe, Johnny Cox, and others who play a universal tuning exclusively.

[J D Sauser]

I think a "lite" E9th without the D string (9th string being replaced by a pull) can be somewhat of a B6th (E->Eb lever engage) or A6th (A&B pedals down)... and most if not all the single note stuff would be available. The difference for single note "C6th" (Jazz/Bebop) lines in C6th vs E9th are the intervals which are closer on C6th. There are NO adjacent string 4ths. 4ths and 5ths only happen every second string. So the intervallic structure is more narrow. I could point out that on C6th, the "average" interval between adjacent strings is almost minor 3rds. there is an equal amount of minor third and major third intervals (taking turns) and, IF you have a D on top also 3 second intervals right under a straight bar. This makes articulating all sorts of intervals (runs) from chromatic thru 5ths relatively accessible without even using the pedals.

E9th relies HEAVILY on using pedals and it's two ominous "chromatic"-string on top for fast single notes, harmony and chords. C6th not so much until it comes to complicated chords.

The heavy chords with different bass notes (changing the chord as such) would NOT be available on such a "lite" 10 string setup, because the lack of alternate bass roots which make the modern C6th so interesting (C6th's 9th string tuned to F (IV relative to C), to give you an example). A player with ample enough understanding could however place chord fragments against the bass player's roots and sound "heavy".

You might want to give recordings by Zane Beck a listen (to be found on youTUBE, even thou he played 12 strings, his relatively simple tuning based around E13th (E9th + 6th) had that E9th vibe but could be played very "Jazzy".
And you might want to listen to E9th's inventor's Bud Isaac solo records, which with ONE pedal (A&B before they were split by Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day) on the initial version of his invention, played a lot of Country-Swing and on the other hand Jerry Byrd on non pedal C6th (mostly C6th).
I should want to mention, that our hero Buddy Emmons played most of his single not runs on C6th using no or very little pedal or lever changes, whereas some others that followed him early on like Hal Rugg made extensive use of all his changes (and he had a "loaded" C6th setup) even for single note play.

I now I am afraid, I might only have confused you further... J-D.

[Ron Hogan]

Example of a popular tune played on the E9th but sounds like C6

https://clyp.it/i1s1wzeo

[Jim Hinds]

That sounds great Ron.

[J D Sauser]

That sounds great Ron.

yep, it does!... J-D.

[scott murray]

Scott Murray is an excellent player and extremely knowledgeable about the instrument. However there have been a number of great Universal players including Junior Knight, Reece Anderson, David Wright, Joe Wright, Zane Beck, Bill Stafford, Julian Tharpe, Johnny Cox, and others who play a universal tuning exclusively.

thanks Bill. and thanks for helping prove my point... it's tough to name more U12 players than you can count on both hands. don't forget Jeff Newman

the list of dedicated D10 players goes on and on and the reason given by guys like Emmons and Franklin is that you lose a bit of each tuning by combining them. for most, the compromise isn't worth the convenience.

I believe Beck and Tharpe had their own tunings, not exactly standard U12. and Johnny Cox only went public with his D13 tuning about 6 years ago. Pete Grant is another 12-stringer I really enjoy but his tuning is also unique to him

[Ian Rae]

No, that's why they build D10s

(I'm aware of the Excel E9/C6 which shouldn't work but clearly does!)

[John Gutowski]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you so much for all of the very thoughtful replies. This has given me a lot to think about, but some of my key takeaways are -

Spend Time With a Player - This is always great advice! Thank you Bob. I appreciate that you reached out to me separately and will follow up on your very gracious offer shortly, it would be great to connect and have a quick chat with you. I am located in upstate New York and there don’t seem to be many opportunities for connecting with players or trying out these instruments in-person.

Listen to the Greats - Again, always great advice and the recommendations here will be extremely helpful - Junior Knight, Reece Anderson, David Wright, Joe Wright, Zane Beck, Bill Stafford, Julian Tharpe, Johnny Cox, Zane Beck, Jerry Byrd, Jeff Newman, Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Hal Rugg - I have a lot of listening to do and I’m excited to dive in. Many of these players seem to have their own innovative custom tuning variations, copedants, and unique approaches to the instrument, can’t wait to check them all out.

Swapping S10 from E9 to C6 and back seems like a tough route to go for a beginner, and not a simple change at all. As Scott said, “Putting C6 on a S10 isn’t ideal, mainly because they are designed for E9. C6 traditionally uses 5 pedals, and most players are using 4 or 5 knee levers as well.” So it wouldn’t be possible with many guitars, and if it is possible it sounds like it would require a good deal of cost, know-how, mechanical labor, and adjustments. I will look into the Excel, but at this time I think I will not pursue this route.

12 String Universal Setups with E9/B6 Copedent is certainly an option, and in many ways seems to combine the best of both worlds. My hesitation with going this route straight away is that they seem to be quite expensive for someone just starting out, and I don’t want to overwhelm myself. There also seems to be less literature related to these instruments. Scott mentioned that “there’s a reason most pros never made the switch from D10.” I will continue to do my research, but I think I will also not pursue this route at the moment.

J-D, I’ll admit that your response is a little out of my depth at the moment as I’m not fully grasping the layout of the instrument quite yet. I imagine I will spend many many hours in the seat before I start to “get it” - from my very basic (and quite possibly flawed!) perspective, E9 is arranged more like a “guitar player” might approach the instrument, and C6/B6 is arranged more like a “piano player” might choose to approach the instrument. I don’t think I’ll be able to really “feel” the intervallic intricacies of either tuning until I have the opportunity to sit down and spend some time with the instrument. My current understanding is that you can play almost anything with either tuning - the voicings of the harmonic structure and how you approach them will just be different, and some moves may be “easier” on one tuning vs another - but from what I understand you can set up your copedent in a way that helps you to achieve what you’re trying to do, I’m sure I will be experimenting a lot with this during my journey.

These are just some very early takeaways from studying the layouts of the two tunings, again I have much to learn here. At present I think I am leaning more towards a D10 - it will take a little longer to save up for such an instrument, but in the end I think it will be worth it so I can fully explore the possibilities of multiple approaches. The good thing is that while I save I can do more research and listening.

Again I really appreciate all of the thoughtful responses here, thank you everyone.

[John Gutowski]

And Ron, thank you for the example - sounds lovely. I hope I can play even half as good as that someday!

[J D Sauser]

Re-thinking about this whole subject and the answers coming up
The question "Can I sound on E9th like on a BE PSG C6th" is definitely "NO".
Because the so called "BE"-10-string C6th has way more bassy strings.
Can one play Western Swing, Swing, Jazz, Bebop on E9th? "YES"
There have been many who became quite proficient on it. The two main C6th Changes are present via the D-string (P6) and the E->Eb lever in conjunction with A&B down (P5).
ALL that is missing in a non-pedal C6th is the DOMINANT. There is a Major (C) and a minor (Am). Most of the C6th basic changes (P5,6,8 and the A# and C# optional levers) are ALL primarily turning Major positions into Dominant or minor7th position into Dominant too by raising the flattened third. Evidently these changes can also turn some Major positions into minor and all Dominant positions can be viewed as half-diminished (m7b5) taking root at the M3rd of the Dominant chord.
ALL that is present on an E9th with 3P & a few levers... even a quite basic setup like Lloyd Green is known to have made a career on. You might ask, "why then did HE not play Swing on his E9th?"... I can't speak for him, but my guess his career was at it's peak when Swing was just "old". He did however record some solo Pop tunes (very much like Bobbe Seymore did in the same time period) which involved complex chord progressions and called for more "interesting" chords than what would have been expected from a steel player in a C&W setting.
I remember, before I got my first PSG, I saw a guy play in a concert on a "little" S10 with 3P & 2K with a Western Swing band, much in the style of Bob White and PeeWee Whitewing alongside Hank Thompson. I asked him about his tuning and it was E9th and he was the first to show me "it's all there"... except for the bass roots.

So yes, you definitely can go out "swingin' and wailin', playin' up strom, raisn' all hell all nite long on E9th" and even fool some steel players and do GREAT. It won't have the range into the bass section and thus so many <-wide-> sounding shell voicings which C6th players can run thru all chords in all qualities very similar to piano players playing one chord with closed hands. But you can get pretty close to what standard guitar players can do in Jazz on their 6-stringers except maybe for speed (unless some of Doug Jernigan's or Paul Franklin's blood runs thru your veins).

Would the question be reversed "can I play "E9th"-sounds on C6th?", I would I say "unless you are Buddy Emmons... UNLIKELY" and that's just an embellished but resounding "NOPE!".
BE has written extensively about his wait for an E9th PSG after "Slowly" hit the radios.
He even created a non-pedal tuning which allowed him to mimic the typical sounds heard to bridge that wait (2 years if I am not mistaken!).
There is also one video of BE in later years, taking a solo which with closed eyes we'd all swear was E9th... on C6th PSG... but again, that's BE. Most of us can't WALK like he did and none of us even only have that grin he charmed us all with!

I am long afar from E9th... but I still regard Bud Isaac's "invention" as the most musical applications of Western Musical concepts to the mechanics of an instrument. While it clearly carries the apparently addictive tendencies to produce some cliché sounds, it is an immensely versatile tuning and setup.
If a Sax can play Jazz... which is like a steel guitar with only ONE string without any pedals and levers, but still capable of all 12 semi-tones, one can play Country, Hawaiian, Jazz, and even Classical... at 9 more strings a hand full of changes... it's maybe not "limitless" (NO instrument is, not even the organ), but it can more than what we'll learn to do with it in our lifetimes.

... J-D.

[Bob Hoffnar]

John,
Looking forward to hearing from you ! Be careful with the pedalsteel ! It can be very captivating. Once you sink into it there are subtle levels and wild extremes of expression that are not available on other instruments.

[Lee Gauthier]

In addition to spending some time with someone who plays. My 2c is to just get a standard E9 (or D10) sooner than later and not worry about designing the perfect copedent from the get go. Hands on time is gonna do way more for figuring you "your" tuning than just theorizing based on "getting everything all at once". Small tweaks to the copedent aren't a big deal if you want to experiment later.

In your specific case thinking of math rock relations, personally I've had more luck with those sounds on E9 than C6. The AB position thinking of the D string as the root is a better register for getting a sparkly math rock maj7 sound than the F position on C6. Also, the "chromatic strings" are nice for grabbing and getting ringing pretty dissonances on E9.

Disclosure, I'm a D13 universal player now and it's my ideal compromise for getting it all. E9 and C6 are both "perfect" tunnings the same way 6 string guitar's asymmetries are perfect. You don't need to add anything to either tuning but you wouldn't want to take anything away. D13 to me is like a 7 or 8 string just in the sense it doesn't remove anything from the base tunings, but it does change the ergonomics and you may not need the extra notes it gives.

[Paul Hutzler]

Its tough to change an E9 to a C6. Double neck or universal is best. What kind of chords are you looking for?

[Daniel Morris]

There also seems to be less literature related to these instruments. Scott mentioned that “there’s a reason most pros never made the switch from D10.

I've played U12 steels exclusively since 1979. I have used C6 and E9 teaching material without issue - you simply renumber your strings.
I have 2 options for the low D on an E9 10 string: P6, string 8, or RKL, which lowers 2 to C# and raises 9 from B to D. When lowering my Es (4 & 8 only), I also lower my D# (2) to C#, thereby giving me the equivalent of a C6 first string G or D (F# or C#). I feel there's always a trade-off, and no such thing as the perfect tuning.
Many of the top pros, especially the older generation (including those who have passed), learned on non-pedal guitars. It just made sense to them to use that on pedal steel. Plus, a Universal 12 string steel wasn't an option until sometime in the '70s (those who know better, please correct me). I recall reading that steels did not come with a triple raise/triple lower mechanism that was needed for a full E9/B6 tuning.
I agree with others who have said, 'if you're new to pedal steel, get a U12. If you're used to a D10, stick with it'.
You won't have the bass strings on an S10 that a D10 C6 has, which provide a signature sound. That's a point Doug Jernigan made to me. He also said he tried a U12, but was too steeped in D10 to switch.
Good luck, John!

[K Maul]

I live in “upstate” New York, also. I sent you a PM. Maybe we can meet up.

[Jeremy Threlfall]

I've got a 10 string universal tuning on one of my Anapegs

It works fine

[Marco Coblenz]

In search of a S10 universal I found Bobby Lees D6th Hybrid and have it on my guitar. I think it is brilliant.