Why not Blanton knife edge changer?

[John Hyland]

The open faced Blanton knife edge changer system seems like a good option but it has not been readily adopted. Any ideas, practical or theory why not?
I like the idea for:

• ability to remove a single changer for replacement or maintenance

• Clean lines

• Superior lateral strength and bending resistance

[David Ball]

I like the Blanton system--pretty similar at the changer to Fender pedal steels. But I think that the axle on a traditional changer has a big impact on tone. My favorite tone on a PSG is still the ShoBud Permanent. The earlier Permanents with a big axle and relatively thin aluminum on the fingers are my very favorites. The later ones with smaller axles and a bit thicker aluminum going around the axle just don't sound quite as good to my ear.

The Emmons guitars also used fairly thin aluminum around the axle, and I think that has a lot to do with their sound.

The Blanton knife edge seems to more or less isolate the fingers from the rest of the guitar. Early banjo tone rings like the Fairbanks Electric or Whyte Laydie did the same thing--isolate the part of the instrument (tone ring on banjo, fingers on PSG) that has the vibrations going on from the rest of the instrument. Inertia keeps the vibrations largely isolated from the body since the tiny contact point (knife edge on PSG) doesn't offer a point of least resistance for the vibrations to travel through. Or at least that's my theory.

The heavy fingers on the Blantons I've had, along with the knife edge pivot, seemed to me to have a lot of sustain and an emphasis on the fundamental tone. The heavy axle/relatively thin aluminum fingers on my Permanents probably don't sustain quite as much, but have a little more interesting tone (mix of fundamental and harmonics) to my ear.

Of course, I could well be totally wrong about the physics of all of this. But it comes from a long time banjo builder who has experimented a lot with the tone ring mass/isolation/fit to the wooden parts aspect of the craft. I see or hear a parallel here with PSG design. But being a banjo guy, take it all with a grain of salt!

Dave

[Jerry Overstreet]

Interesting discussion. I wouldn't want to second guess the experts that build these machines so there must be a reason for not designing any of the current steel guitars with this system.

I have to say though, that I have an ancient, by some standards, all pull Fender Artist/Sho~Bud D10 that has the kinife edge system and I love it. It sounds just fine and never breaks strings so me happy, but gotta be a reason the system is not used in current builds.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Here is things that come to mind to me. That a maker would have to consider.
1. If string breaks, Would parts fly out of position. Can player replace and restring.
Would it require a bar to hold the fingers in position, That could cause
other problems.
2. Strings closer to body of guitar, Not enough stress on body for tone
some manufactures seeking.
3. Key head higher than changer, Strings not level.
4. Would you have to use an ash tray key head, Sunk in body to level the
strings. More work make guitar higher priced.
5. With newer guitars with 3 raise 2 lower, Or 3 raise 3 lower changers.
Would body have to be taller, For changer levers. Making body heavier.
6. Edge pivot point to narrow. Cause burrs on finger, And return problems.
7. Round shaft, Buy ground round stock, Cut to length. Have to mill the knife edge. Cheaper and quicker to just drill holes for shaft, More work cutting slots in changer fingers.
8. Hard to put spacers between fingers on a knife edge. Buy nylon washers by thousand put them on round shaft, Between fingers.
I'll back in my cage.

[Jerry Overstreet]

I'm in no position to address if there are construction issues, but I don't see any reason why the strings would have to be lower to the body. The changer fingers seem to sit at relatively the same distance to the body as shaft built changers and the roller nut the same.

No need for sunken pan tuners. If they are used, they would be like the Artist which are mounted on a riser same height as the neck, pickup housing etc., but any conventional keyhead and tuners would be just fine.

Otherwise, no reason why the system couldn't be 2/3 or even 3/3 if desired, but again, I defer to the experts in the field.

[Donny Hinson]

The knife-edge changer design has very little surface to transmit vibrations. I think this is the same reason that the Fender changer of the same design doesn't have really good sustain, despite the massive body. (I've no experience with the Blantons.) I've also noticed the same thing on straight guitars, the larger the surface that transmits string vibrations to the body, the better the sustain. I think most of the issues people seem to have with fingers on an axle are overblown. Most of the time, they're simply caused by poor maintenance.

[Jerry Overstreet]

I disagree that knife edge guitars have less sustain. The Fender Artist I'm playing sustains just as well as any guitar I've ever owned. Better than some.

[Tim Toberer]

This is similar to the argument for the zero fret on standard guitar vs. a bone nut. I think it comes down to tradition. The zero fret has many advantages, but I just prefer a properly cut bone nut. Doesn't look right without it. That said the steel guitar seems to still be evolving more rapidly. I think the standards are still changing. As a builder I could see some advantages, and maintenance would be easier for a player.
I am not sure about sustain, this reminds me of all the tone arguments about wood, bracing, body shape. Or which flavor of vacuum tube gives the sweetest sounding highs or smoothest distortion. There seems to be no single answer. My biggest concern with pedal steel is how does it operate, then comes tone. So much of the tone comes from the player. Friction is a big problem, and maintenance isn't easy or cheap.

[Ian Worley]

...So much of the tone comes from the player...

Amen

[John Hyland]

Thanks for the comments so far I look forward to more.

Apart from possible wear issues, so far I haven’t read any convincing comments. Regarding some of the key comments….

Wear: any users have comments on this?

Body design; I don’t see that the fundamental design of the body would need to be radically different.

Sustain: A narrow contact point is no different to the nut where the strings are on the small point of the rollers., nor a comb style bridge with a small axle

Stability without a string: I would be interested to hear more on this from knife edge players. There would be a design solution I imagine.

[Ian Worley]

...Stability without a string: I would be interested to hear more on this from knife edge players. There would be a design solution I imagine.

On the old '60s Fenders, the fingers flop around a bit when the strings are off, but require no special treatment. They cannot however be removed without removing the entire base plate (the part with the "knife edge"), at which point the fingers can only be removed from the bottom. This appears to be a very intentional design decision to prevent the fingers from falling out whenever the guitar was inverted without strings. There is an extra notch in the base plate at the string 1 position that allows the finger to be rotated enough to slip out of the slot from below. Each finger must be slid over to that position before it can be removed. So if, for some reason, you needed to remove the string 10 finger, you would have to remove 1-9 first. The nice thing about the Fender design in general is that the scissor mechanisms within the changer are tuned independently, so removing the base plate and fingers has no effect on the tuning of the changer.

[John Hyland]

Thanks Ian

[Mike Bourque]

Figured I’d chime in with my two cents.
I own several Blantons (4 new ones ,serial number 1 from 2005 ish , 8 from 2017 ,and 14 and 15 both from 2021 ). Also have a 70s D10 and a SD10 that both have the normal string spacing (the new ones do as well ) most Blantons have a narrow spacing at the changer end. And I also have two older S10s. (One really old one ). And I also have a 60s D12 and a lefty D10 without the guts. Have everything else tho so anyone with parts please reach out to me

My two cents on the Blanton is that it’s one of the best steels ever made for so many reasons . I have experiments I do want to try , like how would it sound in a modern setting with a modern pickup (like 18k or a 710 or a PF-1 or something similar ). As most are pretty lightly wound pickups. His pickup is very unique as well.

Also the old ones were very heavy and lots of metal and the new ones are very light and are mostly all wood , no end plates (just 4 corners that hold the legs) no Keyheads. (Not keyless however ) each string tuner is on its own post. They have the best string separation I have ever heard on any guitar.

The knife edge. I think it’s brilliant. I have some newer jackson steels that have that system and I love them as well. The right hand just feels right with These , and the string response time is very quick to the pick attack. And they ring and sustain like no other. Also like the anapeg and other high end guitars. The strings run parallel from changer to the roller nut and then onto the tuner straight. and I seriously think there is something to this.(of all people Gene Watson pointed that out to me when I used my Blanton on his gig , after asking me if it’s was the son of Jerry Blanton in San Antonio that built these guitars , he said when he was a teenager Jerry was the best musician around ).

Most steels have too narrow of a spacing at the keyhead and in my experience the ones with the wider spacing always sound the best. (Like certain early wrap arounds , or the later permanent / early fingertips and so on ) I can only guess that it isn’t just a coincidence

I do realize I just wrote a novel but , to me the knife edge is the best and I hope to see other steel builders use it in the future.


(Also to the ones that are leery of having to tune the Blanton underneath on the bell crank screw itself. I promise it’s not an issue and it’s very stable and works great. ).

[Tim Toberer]

Also the old ones were very heavy and lots of metal and the new ones are very light and are mostly all wood , no end plates (just 4 corners that hold the legs) no Keyheads. (Not keyless however ) each string tuner is on its own post. They have the best string separation I have ever heard on any guitar.

Thanks for your response! It is good to hear from someone with actual experience with them. I am designing my own guitars and I am super curious about this model. I like the idea of using more wood and less metal. Is this the guitar you are describing? The changer fingers actually look like brass, which would be a bit surprising. Nice looking instrument! Here is the thread with more pictures. viewtopic.php?t=363796

[Christopher Adams]

Figured I’d chime in with my two cents.
I own several Blantons (4 new ones ,serial number 1 from 2005 ish , 8 from 2017 ,and 14 and 15 both from 2021 ). Also have a 70s D10 and a SD10 that both have the normal string spacing (the new ones do as well ) most Blantons have a narrow spacing at the changer end. And I also have two older S10s. (One really old one ). And I also have a 60s D12 and a lefty D10 without the guts. Have everything else tho so anyone with parts please reach out to me

Hi Mike. Check your Private Messages concerning Blanton parts. Thanks.

[Tim Toberer]

I started another thread about the unique tuning/timing aspect of these guitars. viewtopic.php?t=407508
Hopefully some experienced Blanton owners will chime in on this as well. To me this is the most interesting thing about these guitars. No tuning window, no tuning nuts etc. It would be really helpful to see an entire changer finger, because I am trying to figure out how this system works. The Blanton bellcrank is also one of the most innovative designs in the steel guitar world.