C6 Tuning question

[Pete Martin]

Hi all.

Newbie here on 6 string lap steel, but have played mandolin guitar and fiddle for a very long time. I have extensively studied theory and play lots of Western Swing, Bluegrass and for a good number of years now, bebop. Know jazz chords, voice leading, Barry Harris 6thdim chords, etc. Want to dabble around with Western Swing straight steel.

Been playing C6, C E G A C E. I would really like to have a dominant seventh and (at least partial) diminished without slants so I have a couple of questions.

Was wondering if anyone had tried tuning Bb E G A C E. This way have a well voiced 13 with b7on the bottom and 6 on top.

I also saw some play C# E G A C E. If any of you use this and would care to comment, I’d be appreciative of your opinions.

Thanks for listening. I’ve been reading lotsa posts here and really enjoying the forum!

Pete

[Stanislav Paskalev]

CEGBDF will give you straight bar dominant sevenths and some diminished options.

[Nathan Golub]

The easiest use of C# on the sixth string gets you the dominant seven chord two frets back from your home base position. So in the key of F, you get the F chord at fret five, then at fret three play strings 6 5 4 3 for a C7, then resolve back to fret five.

Or, from the home base fret, go up three frets and play those bottom strings to get the seventh chord of the home base chord. So fret five for F, then up three frets to eight and play 6 5 4 3 for F7, then go up two more frets to ten for the IV chord Bb.

[Pete Martin]

https://youtu.be/Fz139mprDCU?si=dSqmOzowUyp77ViP

Just saw this about B11 tuning. Most of the sounds I want are here with no slants. I’ll try this one!

[Jack Hanson]

Don't be afraid to attempt to play slants. It's a huge part of the C6 vocabulary. For an easy 6th to 7th slant, play strings 5 & 3 at the 7th fret. Then, twirl the top end of your bar on the 3rd string from the 7th to 8th fret, keeping the 5th string stationary on the 7th fret. Easy-peasy G6 to G7. Alternatively, you can pull the 3rd string up a half step with your ring finger behind the bar. With a little practice, both methods will become second nature. Good luck!

[Mike Neer]

Slants are the essence of C6. I cannot begin to tell you how much gold is in there if you spend the time to acquire and master the skills. It really isn’t as hard as you think it is after you get the hang of it. Tough in the beginning, simple in the end. Give it a try and don’t give up.

The most important thing is to start with the right tools. A bullet for 6 string should be around 2.75-3.00” with a thumb indent. Finding the right bar is step number 1. Much more difficult without a bullet bar.

[Fred]

I'd recommend playing around with the C# on the 6th string. In addition to the obvious A7(#9) there's also Eb13 under the straight bar. And you still have most of the slants.

[Dean Gray]

Pete Martin, it’s so cool to see you here on the steel guitar forum. Your educational material for mandolin and particularly the chord tone scale exercises have been super helpful. As well as your Barry Harris 6th diminished videos.
I’m sure you will find cool things in the B11th tuning. Please share them with us!
I am mostly at home in A6 with the 5th of the triad on string 1. B11 shares this, and it’s a quick retune between the two. I’ve gone to the dark side, with an 8 string pedal steel in A6. Diminished chords via 2 pedals and dom 7 with a knee lever. Some might say it’s cheating….. I don’t care, it’s a D8 with E9 on top so it gets me a lot of gigs!

[Tim Toberer]

Hi all.


Been playing C6, C E G A C E. I would really like to have a dominant seventh and (at least partial) diminished without slants so I have a couple of questions.



Thanks for listening. I’ve been reading lotsa posts here and really enjoying the forum!

Pete

It is pretty amazing what can be done with just 6 strings, but would you consider going to 8? I started with similar ideas and tried most of the popular tunings and a few made up versions. I like 8 string A6 over C6 because the "weird" notes can be on the bottom, and you still have 6 string A6 intact on the top. I also like the AC#E on top because I am obsessed with Bob Dunn. F# (G-G#) A (A#-B) C# E F# A C# E

If I ever decide to build another regular steel guitar it will be either a single 10 with Morrell E13 or a D8 with A6 and E13. That covers most grounds. For a single 6 tuning with dense jazz chords in straight bar, Leavitt is all I can think of, or maybe B11. That is asking a lot of 6 notes! I like full voicings as an option so now I mostly just play a homemade pedal steel that can get it all. Here is a warning. This instrument is addictive! All your other talents may suffer.

[Pete Martin]

I am planing on playing 6 strings for a while and see if I get any good. Then if so, I’m thinking a double neck 8. While I suck bad right now, it is VERY fun!

[Nic Neufeld]

Lotta great suggestions.

Would definitely second Mike's "don't fear the slants". They sound awful, I know...until they don't...just keep at it.

Your own idea of just going to Bb on the low string is how Alan Akaka teaches C13 tuning to people who don't have a 7 or 8 string. It's a perfectly good tuning and you can easily just tune up and down to it from regular C6.

Likewise tuning up your low string as others mentioned to C# gives you C6/A7, what I call a split tuning that lets you get seventh chords. Jerry Byrd used this a lot.

If you get a 7 or 8 string, Jules Ah See C13 is a great tuning that is just an extra Bb and low C on the bottom. Plenty of other tunings are possible but if you've started out in CEGACE C6, would kind of recommend sticking with it and just using the variants like C13 and C6A7 for now so you don't have to start over with a radically different new tuning.

[Jim Newberry]

Hi Pete, glad to have you here! I'm a neighbor and I can help you if you need anything. I'll send you a PM.

[Paul Seager]

When I first started on steel I was overwhelmed by the idea of slants and tunings until I actually found a need for them! I began on 6-string C6 and slowly, for each song I learned to adapt. So if I was playing a song that had an occasional 7th chord, then I would slant. But if a song depended on a lot of 7th chords, I would drop the lower C down to Bb or, change the A up to Bb. Whatever suited the song best.

Later, I acquired 8 string instruments with first one, then two and most recently three necks. My preference now is A6 over C6 (I like having the 5th on top) coupled with B11. They share the top four strings meaning that I tend to learn melodies or practice my soloing on the top four and choose or switch between necks for necessary chords. But I still use slants not least for effect - they can sound cool!

It's an evolutionary process and my point is don't feel you have to "one or another" technique or tuning - work with the song!

[Michael Kiese]

Hi all.

Been playing C6, C E G A C E. I would really like to have a dominant seventh and (at least partial) diminished without slants so I have a couple of questions.

Pete

Hi Pete,

DOMINANT 7th:
Have you noticed that if you take a straight bar on the C6, and move it 2 frets towards the nut, you get a dominant 7 of the same chord?

ex) C6 at the 12 fret, the top 3 strings (bottom up) are A, C, E. If you move all those notes down a whole tone (10th fret), you have the notes G, Bb, D. That is the 5, b7, and 9 in relation to a C bass note. There's your dominant 7th chord. By nomenclature, it's a C9 chord, which is in the family of dominant 7 chords and it sounds fabulous.

DIMINISHED:
Diminished and Augmented chords can be achieved through slants which are not too difficult. Mike Neer has a video on YouTube entitled "Slantless Diminished Chords" where he demonstrates how to get diminished chords on C6 by pushing down on the tip end of the bar. Those are pretty cool and useful. Mike's a great player and he's really dived deep down the rabbit hole on C6.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxeYZnU4hOA

C#EGACE:
This is a cool hybrid tuning of Jerry Byrd's invention (I believe). It's a combination of C6 and A7 chords. The majority of Hawaiian Steel playing really "lives" on the top 4 strings of the steel, especially in the traditional Hawaiian band setting where there are singers and hula dancers. The job of the steel in Hawaiian music is to "fill, fill, fill" in the pukas (holes). The pukas exist at the end of phrases of the vocals, and during Vamp turnarounds. Every now again, the steel player gets thrown a "Pa'ani" which literally translated from Hawaiian to English is "fun". Musically speaking, it means "take a ride Brah!".

Having said that, the low C can end up being rarely used, or less used to the point where it can be sacrificed without detriment to playing idiomatic Hawaiian Steel phrases. Changing the low C to a C# effectively gives you an A7 (VI7) chord in home position. Pragmatically speaking it gives you I, VI7, II7, V7 within the span of 2 frets, at the expense of sacrificing slants on your bottom 3 strings. Depending on the chord progression of an individual song you're playing, this could be an acceptable trade-off.


My 2¢:

o My personal approach to playing Hawaiian Steel is more pragmatic and less "I'm always playing the melody and every song is an instrumental". I play steel in the context of a live Hawaiian band. The Steel is there for color and to lend an authentic sound to my Hawaiian band, every bit as much as the Hula dancer makes it authentic as well. I enjoy singing and harmonizing with other vocalists just as much as I enjoy playing steel. It's a balance between vocals and instrumentals.

o Other players' approach is to create backing tracks and to learn the melodies to songs and play a song top to bottom. Every song is an instrumental song with Steel as the lead instrument.

Both approaches are valid. Too much singing can get boring. Too much instrumentals can get boring. So do both! The instrumentals gives a chance for the steel to shine and for the vocalist to rest their voice.


IN SUMMARY:
In the end, whether you're going to sing and play steel, or if you're going to take the pure instrumental approach, my best advice is to keep it simple, stick to six string C6 and don't be afraid to learn forward and reverse slants. You'll find that EVERYTHING you need is RIGHT THERE. You just gotta REALIZE it's there.

I love C6, and I play a little B11 as well as some open tunings. But on the gig, it's C6 all the way. I sing, play guitar, and play steel. I don't got time to mess with re-tuning. Too much hassle. My job is to entertain the audience, not to prove how many tunings I can play at the expense of dead time between songs retuning my steel. That's just my point of view. The audience doesn't know the difference between different tunings, they just like the sound of Hawaiian steel. And as it is, I don't want to bring 2 steels to every gig. Too much hassle. lol.

Really and truly, ALL THE NOTES AND CHORDS you need ARE IN the C6 tuning. You just have to realize it's there.

Here's a small nugget: how the heck do I play a iimin chord? I realized I could just play a IV major triad. Let the bass player play the low note.

ex) in the key of C, Dmin is the iimin chord. I can play a F major triad, which gives me the notes F, A, C. Within the context of a D bass note, F is the b3, A is the 5, and C is the b7.

The I chord, the IV chord, and the V chord are available ALL DAY on C6. It's up to the player to realize how to use what the tuning gives you in different contexts.

Like I said, it's ALL THERE. You just have to realize it's there.

Playing straight steel is all about superimposing triads over different bass notes. The pedals/capos/levers/whatever are in your HEAD. I find the challenge of unlocking the puzzle very fun and rewarding.

I heard someone say something funny:

"Playing lap steel is like driving around town in a car that can only turn left. You can still get to where you need to, you just have to plan it out." LMAO. And it's true! lol.

Good luck! Playing C6 whether on Hawaiian Steel or Western Swing sure is a fun journey! I wish you lots of enjoyment!

[Pete Martin]

"Playing lap steel is like driving around town in a car that can only turn left. You can still get to where you need to, you just have to plan it out."

At this point, I can only steel straight into a concrete wall!

Thanks so much for all the great advice folks!!! And watch out for an EH125 when you're out driving!!!

Pete

[Pete Martin]

Ha!!! I wanted to write "steer" into a wall, but "steel" into a wall is more accurate.

[Michael Kiese]

Hi all.

Newbie here on 6 string lap steel, but have played mandolin guitar and fiddle for a very long time. I have extensively studied theory and play lots of Western Swing, Bluegrass and for a good number of years now, bebop. Know jazz chords, voice leading, Barry Harris 6thdim chords, etc. Want to dabble around with Western Swing straight steel.

Pete

Hey Pete,

You'll get there brah, no worries. Just keep at it, a little bit every day.

Don't give up, it's fun and rewarding!

Since you know your theory and how to play jazz, that's a great help. It'll come to you faster than you think.

I have no doubt you'll be able to pick it up if you keep at it.

Don't overthink it. Just stick with six string C6 and keep it simple. Don't be afraid of slants, they're your friend!

C6 is C6 whether you use it for Hawaiian, Western Swing, or Jazz.

You'll go far. Trust me.

But most important...don't forget to HAVE FUN and ENJOY!

[David M Brown]

Been playing C6, C E G A C E. I would really like to have a dominant seventh and (at least partial) diminished without slants

Hi Pete,

One other option is to pull a string behind the bar to change the 6th to a 7th.

So pulling the A string up a half step makes a 7th chord.

C E G A C E to C E G Bb C E. C6 to C7

you can also pull the C string for another inversion:

(no low string C) E G A C E to E G A C# E. C6 to A7

Of course it takes a bit of practice to get used to pulling strings behind the bar, but it's a useful trick.

[Michael Kiese]

Been playing C6, C E G A C E. I would really like to have a dominant seventh and (at least partial) diminished without slants

So pulling the A string up a half step makes a 7th chord.

C E G A C E to C E G Bb C E. C6 to C7

you can also pull the C string for another inversion:

(no low string C) E G A C E to E G A C# E. C6 to A7

Of course it takes a bit of practice to get used to pulling strings behind the bar, but it's a useful trick.

Hi David,

I've never considered those options! I'm going to practice that right away! Thanks for adding to the conversation!

[David M Brown]

Hi David,

I've never considered those options! I'm going to practice that right away! Thanks for adding to the conversation!

I'm happy to help.

[Chris Templeton]

What Mike Neer said, SLANTS!. Gotta have a round nose bar.
When I took lessons with Jerry Byrd, he said to use the wrist to do forward or reverse slants.
With a reverse slant, push the heel of the bar out with the thumb and don't use the shoulder.
Former Asleep At The Wheel steeler, John Ely, had to stop playing for a time, because he had been been using his shoulder when executing slants and injured himself.

[David M Brown]

What Mike Neer said, SLANTS!. Gotta have a round nose bar.
When I took lessons with Jerry Byrd, he said to use the wrist to do forward or reverse slants.
With a reverse slant, push the heel of the bar out with the thumb and don't use the shoulder.
Former Asleep At The Wheel steeler, John Ely, had to stop playing for a time, because he had been been using his shoulder when executing slants and injured himself.

All good points!

I second the round nose bar.