HELP! - Copedent setup MSA Legend XL

[Jim Perfumo]

I am struggling with a copedent conversion on my new MSA legend XL.

I removed the (strings 5&10) B to Bb (assigned to LKV) and re-assigned the LKV as a 6th string lower to F#(P5 in the image),..all good there..no issues

I took the extra bell crank/rod from that lever, and moved it to the D lever crossbar for a string 10 whole tone lower(B to A), along with the 2 D's(strings 2 & 9) currently lowering on the same lever.

The problem I am having is that I cannot get the 10th string to lower further than A# and get to the A, no matter what I do..I tried every location on the bell crank and changer holes and all combinations.
I made sure I backed out my split screw, still can't get to the A.

The only thing I haven't tried yet is the lever stop-screw, but there is already a ton of travel on that lever as it is, and I don't want to "spread eagle" that wide to achieve the full bend.
It just seems like there is something else I am missing.
When I refer to the MSA standard copedent, my current copedent does differ a little bit , but RKLF and RKR are same for me, just flip-flopped,..not sure if that would matter(??).
RKR = (string 2-D# to D/C#, String 9-D to C# & String 10-B to A).

Can Anyone help me here?

[mtulbert]

Sent you a pm

[Donny Hinson]

Standard operating procedure in this case is to turn the guitar on its side (or face down) and activate the finger by pushing it with a screwdriver. That will reveal the maximum capability of the changer to reach the desired note.

Also, make sure the raise finger is not moving when the lowering finger is actuated. If so, the return spring is too tight, and you will have to loosen it a little. But make sure the lowering finger returns to the stop bar when nothing is activated.

[Bobby D. Jones]

I 2nd Donny's suggestion. Not only do you have to be a professor of mechanics, You also have to be a Spring Wizard to work on a steel guitar.

[Mike Holder]

It’s possible the tuning screws are adjusted to only lower a half tone.( not the nylon nuts the screws which uses a 3/32 Allen wrench located on top of the nylon nuts . If in too far they won’t lower much

[Mike Holder]

It’s possible the tuning screws are adjusted to only lower a half tone.( not the nylon nuts the screws which uses a 3/32 Allen wrench located on top of the nylon nuts . If in too far they won’t lower much

[Bengt Erlandsen]

When strings wont lower all the way there are two things I would check.

Too tight return spring that cause the nylon tuner on the lowering pull rod to act as a pivot pointcausing the raise finger to move and cancel out the lowering attempt.
(The further away(hole) from the return spring the lowering rod is passing through, the more chance for this issue to happen)


Helper springs on the raise finger might cause unwanted lowering issues if installed on a string that have both raise and lowering rods installed.


Best of luck finding what prevents the lowering from doing the B-A as intended.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

[Douglas Schuch]

I think Bengt Erlandsen might have hit it - I recently disassembled and cleaned my MSA Millennium changer, which has the same changer as the Legends. And mine had raise-helper springs on many of the strings. These attach to the bottom of the string finger and pull the string in the the raise direction. This means the spring will have to be stretched out to lower a string with that has one fitted. Many have reported problems getting more than a 1/2-step lower on newer MSA's on strings with the helper springs.

I have written Johnny Cox, and then Kyle Bennett, and just today wrote Mitchell Smithy asking about the purpose of the springs, how to decide which strings require them, and how to adjust them.

When reassembling my guitar, I decided to only use them on strings that only raise.

So, first step is to see if there is a raise helper spring on that string. If so, see how tight it is (i.e., which of the plastic balls is locked into the metal strip that holds them, and is the spring under tension in the neutral position). Most of mine, when I disassembled it, were slack in the neutral position - that would not help raises at all, but could hinder lowers. They would, I think, also return the finger to the neutral position more precisely - so maybe they also work to get the finger back to neutral crisply?
If there is one, get a pair of needle-nose pliers and remove it. There are three parts to it: The white plastic strip with balls along the length that allows for adjustment. The spring itself, and a hook that attaches to the spring and hooks onto a small part at the bottom of the string finger. Be careful that the hook does not end up in the changer! They are not easy to deal with with all the rods in place.

Here is a picture of the modern MSA finger:



It's a little hard to see, but the hook for the spring goes over that nub on the bottom of the string finger that is circled in red, with the spring going the direction of the arrow. That "nub" is shaped so that it holds the spring during normal operation.

I am hoping Mitchell or someone at MSA will get back to me on the details on setting up those springs - they don't make much sense to me, but maybe there is something I am missing.

EDIT: Mitchell Smithey got back to me today - THANKS MITCHELL! - here is what he wrote:

Hi Doug, we call them balance springs and at low tension they take a bit of tension out of the changer scissor caused by the rivet holding them together. Just a little pull takes some pressure off the rivet. Some string gauges prefer not to have balance springs, like the .024 G on C6 and the big low string on C6. You can also tighten them all the way on the high F# and G# if there are no lowers involved. It is possible to ruin a good setup by indiscriminately moving those springs around without a good reason, I’ve seen it happen!
Hope that helps! Mitchell

Obviously, if removing any, be sure to photograph or write down how much it is tensioned so you can replace it if it causes issues so you can put it back.

[Mitchell Smithey]

Jim, message me I can help