Fast run fingering..

[OHARA]

This is a fast run up lick from “swinging doors “ from the Emmons course
Note that he uses the thumb twice in succession as opposed to the Newman method of thumb finger thumb crossover .. your opinions on this Please …

[Tom Sosbe]

I'm just a nobody picker who has Taten lesion from just about everybody including Jeff and Buddie. I pay absolutely no attention whatsoever to which finger picks which string. As long as it's the right note I don't care how I got it.
Just me.

[Mike Selecky]

I would practice this several ways to build muscle memory so whichever finger you start with, you'll be able to complete the phrase easily - practice it as shown with the double thumb, then crossover method, and maybe Thumb-Index-Middle

[Damir Besic]

whatever works for you

[Marty Broussard]

Doug Jernigan told me to do what Mike suggested above, then use whatever manner you need to get the notes. I’ve even made-up and mixed/matched a combination of patterns for longer phrases.

[Dale Rottacker]

Doug Jernigan told me to do what Mike suggested above, then use whatever manner you need to get the notes. I’ve even made-up and mixed/matched a combination of patterns for longer phrases.

I use thumb thumb ALL the time, but more as a bit of a strum when playing 4 note chords like on strings 9865, and that to me is second nature. Doing thumb thumb to execute a lick like the one shown seems impossible to me, and I don't know why.

[Marty Broussard]

Same here Dale. Doug, Paul, Buddy, Tommy, and other super pickers appear to strike several successive notes with their thumb—-mind boggling. Sometimes I use T,1,2,T, 1,2,T to get from lower to higher strings.

[Fred Treece]

I like it. Similar to “sweep” and “cross” picking on guitar, it’s an alternative to the T-I-M forward banjo roll and only works when the thumb has two adjacent strings to sweep. When muted, it creates a chicken-pickin kinda thang.

Forum member Mike Neer has recently published a book on economy picking for steel players, including a technique for doing a reverse sweep with middle or index fingers.
viewtopic.php?t=402322&highlight=economy+picking

[Dave Campbell]

i've spent alot of time on those licks across three strings, and have tried many kinds of fingerings to do it. i'm still not always comfortable. i'm surpirsed he recommends two thumb strokes in a row, but he's buddy emmons.

[Andy Gibson]

What’s the gig work like up in NYC these days? I lived there for 10 years in the 90s (got stranded there off a tour) and the last 5 years of it, all I did was play straight 8 string non pedal steel 4 or 5 gigs a week. 3 of them were residencies and nothing but 40s and 50s era country. I had to quit my day job working in the CD/video store on StMarks. I miss the s**t out of that city but it ain’t the same no more. It was hell lugging a double neck fender steel and a tweed bassman combo amp through the streets and in the subways. Usually wound up using half my pay to take a cab at 3am after a gig haha. Wish they had all these light weight amps and electric scooters back then. But I can’t imagine doing it with a full blown pedal steel set up, seat and amp and all that.

[Andy Gibson]

Sorry for getting off the subject of this post.

[Casey Saulpaugh]

For using the thumb twice in succession, and playing those two notes as individual notes (where each note is only played one at a time, and the previous one is blocked) I think it’s important to mention that to accomplish this the first note played with the thumb is likely blocked with the lower part of the palm for Emmons’ tab/recommendation.

Moving from lower strings to higher strings and playing two individual notes in succession with the thumb requires you to block the initial string played with the thumb really quickly for single note runs - since you don’t have any fingers below the thumb, the only real option to block the initial note is with your palm (can’t pick block because your fingers are going to be on the higher strings and moving that direction).

I guess you could possibly find another way to block it, but the players mentioned in this post that achieve this thumb thumb run/pattern likely have great technique for blocking the initial string picked with the thumb and then going from there with whatever pattern works best for the next notes/strings.

It takes a good bit of practice to do this at faster tempos (usually best to start slow when practicing though) - you’ll need to work on shifting between strings and string groupings while focusing on blocking effectively and accurately as the main goal.

Pick blocking is a very effective way to block notes, but if you don’t have any fingers/picks available you’ll need to learn another method for blocking to supplement it - and this is often a part of right hand technique that gets overlooked or can be confusing to understand/practice without an awareness of the goal of this part of right hand technique.

I think a player doing whatever works best for them for a pattern or playing situation is important (you usually won’t have time to think about it in that playing moment - this is where the practice comes in), but having the practice/tools to block so that muscle memory can take over and you are free to be more musical and not have to think in that playing moment is important.

Hope this is helpful and not too wordy/confusing - it’s challenging to explain this clearly using words instead of talking or showing it haha. But this aspect of blocking can go a long way and be incredibly helpful for even more than just the thumb thumb pattern.

[Fred Treece]

For the sake of clarity—-

Sweep picking is not the same as simultaneously picking two or more adjacent strings. It is picking the strings indvidually and in proper time using the same picking motion with the thumb.

The technique being implied here in the OP’s tab is more precisely “economy picking”, because it does not involve a sweep from beginning to end.

The thumb does not raise up between the strings. After picking a string, it comes to rest on the next string to be picked. Only after the last string in the sweep is picked does the thumb raise up out of the way for the middle (or index) finger to pick the next highest string in the series. In the case of the OP tab, there are only two swept strings followed by an upstroke with the middle finger in each of the four 3-string series.

The song is “Swingin’ Doors”, so each group of 3 notes is probably a triplet. T-T-M is just a way to simplify the picking pattern by eliminating one finger while starting each triplet with the thumb for a nice strong downbeat.

I agree 100% with the need for palm-blocking each note in this run.

[John Swain]

I've heard that called "pushing through". You push through the lower string, stop then push through the next in proper timing.

[Ron Funk]

On the open position fast scale lick for Orange Blossom Special, Doug J uses his thumb to pick Both the 8th and then the 7th string,

But of course Doug J is non-human...

His right hand is like none other on the face of the planet.

Ron

[Fred Treece]

I've heard that called "pushing through". You push through the lower string, stop then push through the next in proper timing.

Yes, that’s what it is. For training purposes, coming to rest against the next string would be the first step, as opposed to stopping between strings like you normally would on a single string free stroke. In the OP example, you “push through” the first string and free stroke the next one.

I called it pushing through in another thread and it was misunderstood.

[Ron Pruter]

I must have missed something. Is this just a tab showing " pushing through?" In other words are you just supposed to use whatever finger you like on the strings that don't have a (t) by it- Then what does the 2's and 1's mean at the bottom?

[Fred Treece]

Ron-
It is my understanding that those are pedal numbers on the bottom. Since I have never seen a pick-hand fingering tabbed with a letter “b”, I make no assumptions other than it means to use a finger rather than thumb.

[J D Sauser]

practice, practice, then release (relax) tension to flow... practice, practice and again release tension... and again..., and again... and... well, you know...

I've never been a fast picker and I have worked pretty much entirely on single note picking these past 3 years... (not chick'n pick'n, but Jazz, so the musical aspect is yet another side to handle) and today I play faster than I thought I'd ever would, but still today, it never seems fast enough (word of warning).

The fastest guys have the added "charm" to make it look "easy"... and therein lays the secret... once you develop technique and reach a new level, one needs to learn and somehow force yourself to RELAX (let the tension go)... and suddenly, you surprise yourself.

I think the smoothest flying steel guitarist I've ever seen, was Billy Phelps at the CARTER booth in the late 90's... just sat there gazing at onlookers with an almost bored grin over his face "flying" on either neck "effortlessly". I think of him every day I play... "be cool like Billy Phelps!".


Don't try to adhere to some "orthodoxy" from "As Seen"-by XYZ... there are and have been many fast players, and ALL of them have different pick's and shapes and angles, even habits we have been told by everybody else are "wrong".
Find out what works for YOU without siding to thoughtlessly on the side of collecting bad habits for no good reason. Self discipline/critique.
We all have pretty similar instruments. But our hands are different. What worked for BE or Jernigan or Weldon, may not be the best approach for me nor you. We can learn immensely form all them... but our hands are very different and so are their hands between the greats... and thus their technique.


... J-D.

[John McClung]

I'll add to what Casey said: I advise students to make a study of "finger logic": try all kinds of ways to play a string of notes, use what sounds and feels best to YOU. And if you keep making the same mistake, really analyze why that's happening and come up with a way that is more repeatable for you.

[Damir Besic]

I heard the story about Jimmy Day somewhere, someone asked him , Jimmy what would you do if you could play very fast , Jimmy replied , I wouldn’t …

[Brint Hannay]

I must have missed something. Is this just a tab showing " pushing through?" In other words are you just supposed to use whatever finger you like on the strings that don't have a (t) by it- Then what does the 2's and 1's mean at the bottom? :eek:

Ron-
It is my understanding that those are pedal numbers on the bottom. Since I have never seen a pick-hand fingering tabbed with a letter “b”, I make no assumptions other than it means to use a finger rather than thumb.

In that Emmons course, the tab uses "a" for the first finger and "b" for the second. (The first finger is only occasionally used in single-note passages.)

[Fred Treece]

Thanks, Brint.