Adding to existing pedals and knee levers

[Alexander Belanger]

Hello, I am new to the world of pedal steel and recently acquired a Carter D10 5 Knee, 8 pedal. As I have been tuning the beast and learning each pedal I have discovered that there are certain strings that are missing part, or all, of their functions in either the C6 or E9 tuning.

These are the following adjustments that I need to make (according to Buddy Emmons C6 and E9 copedents):

E9th - Pedal 3 does not raise B -> C# (5th string - B)
Left Knee Left does not raise E -> F (String 4 - E)
Right Knee Left does not raise D# -> E (String 2 - D#)

C6th - Left Knee Left does not lower A -> Ab (String 4 - A)
Left Knee Right does not raise A ->Bb (String 4 - A)
Right Knee Right does not raise C -> C# (String 3 - C)
Pedal 8 does not raise D -> D# (String 1 - D) [/size]

What parts do I need to buy in order to make these additions? If it is not recommended to work on pedal steel without previous experience/guidance, does anyone know of anyone in the Salt Lake City area that I could take it to make these adjustments? Money is a bit tight, so I would prefer to fix this problem locally, haha!

[Fred Treece]

You might not need to buy any parts. Take a look at the linkage at make sure everything is connected where it’s supposed to be. Check the tuning nuts at the changer end and make sure they are connected to the rods.

Best way to get any advice specific to these problems is to take a picture of the undercarriage and post it here.

[Richard Sinkler]

With only 5 knee levers you do not have the C6 left knee levers. The 3 left knee levers on the guitar now are for the E9 neck. To play C6, you need to pull your knee out of those levers and move your left leg to the right so it is in between the sets of knee levers so it's easier to reach pedals 4-8. Those left knee levers in Buddy's tuning are an extra second set of levers in the middle of the guitar.

E9 pedal 2 shouldn't raise the B to C#. The B to C# changes should be on pedal 1. Pedal 2 should raise the 2 G# strings to A.

The 2nd string raise to E isn't really a standard or even necessary change, although a nice one.

The E9 left knee left should raise string 4 to F. As Fred mentioned, check to make sure the linkage for that raise is working.

To get E9 string 2 to raise to E, and the C6 string 3 to raise to C#, you will need to buy a bellcrank and rod for each of them and install them in the guitar. Those parts should be available from Michael Yahl at PSG Parts.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Turn the guitar upside in its case. Slowly work each pedal and knee lever. Check and see what moves. Check the plastic tuning nuts. If the guitar has set for a while the plastic tuning nuts on many all pull guitars will split or strip and can't be adjusted.

As Mr. Treece suggested some pictures would help a lot. To see what is there and what is needed to set the guitar up to play proper.

Good Luck in getting the guitar setup the way you want, Happy Steelin.

[Alexander Belanger]

Awesome! Thank you for the clarification on what the Left Knee pedals are referring to on the C6 neck Richard. Is it a challenging process to install the bell crank and rod, or is it fairly self-explanatory?

Bobby, as far as I have been able to tell, all of the existing rods and tuning nuts are in working order. I laid under the pedal steel, plucked the strings, and moved each pedal and knee lever to better understand how the instrument works. It seems to just be missing some of the rods to change specific notes, and as Richard pointed out it seems some of the changes are on maybe the wrong pedal. I will definitely double check though just to make sure I didn't miss something.

[Chris Brooks]

Alexander, I'd get the E 9 pedals and levers working first; then C 6 later.

[Richard Sinkler]

Is it a challenging process to install the bell crank and rod, or is it fairly self-explanatory?

It's fairly easy but you do need to know what hole in the changer and bellcrank to use. Let me find my manual and I'll post that info here.

[Richard Sinkler]

Numbering system for changer & bellcrank:

https://steelguitar.com/rodding.html

Rodding Chart:

https://steelguitar.com/roddingS10_D10.html

The rodding chart doesn't show the D# to E change on string 2. My guitar has that rod in PB-2 (bellcrank/pull bar) and R1 (raise 1) in the changer.

You might want to also add the first string raise to G#. That is used often with and without the 2nd string raise to E. That change is on the rodding chart.

Michael Yahl (PSG Parts) will have all the parts you need including the right length rods.

[Alexander Belanger]

Thank You, Richard, you have been a huge help!

[Alexander Belanger]

Chris, I am focusing on the C6 first as a bit of a quote on quote, "Jazz head". Would you recommend investing more time into the E9th first?

[Richard Sinkler]

Thank You, Richard, you have been a huge help!

You're welcome. Any time.

[Richard Sinkler]

Chris, I am focusing on the C6 first as a bit of a quote on quote, "Jazz head". Would you recommend investing more time into the E9th first?

I say go for both. I never agreed with people when they say learn one neck first. It is possible to learn both at the same time. If it becomes too cumbersome, maybe concentrate on one first.

[Alexander Belanger]

Richard, as far as potentially adding Knee Levers (the C6th LKL and LKR), is that something that you would recommend adding as well, or should I maybe hold off? I really want to be able to play some Dominant 7th and minor 7th sounds, but am having trouble consistently getting it in tune with the half-pedal technique.

[Dave Grafe]

Richard, as far as potentially adding Knee Levers (the C6th LKL and LKR), is that something that you would recommend adding as well, or should I maybe hold off? I really want to be able to play some Dominant 7th and minor 7th sounds, but am having trouble consistently getting it in tune with the half-pedal technique.

There's years of music in that one without the C6 left knees, many long-time pros play 8+5 guitars. For now let's focus on getting your instrument in shape so you can get going with the skills and understanding part. It's good that you are starting with the mechanical curricula, some pictures would make it much easier appraise your situation.

P.S. On E9 your strings 2 and 9 are dominant 7ths with pedals up, and 9ths on strings 1 and 7. From a pedals down major drop 2 frets, lift the A pedal while holding the B pedal down, and use the E>Eb lever to get your dom7+9. The same can be done on the C6 by dropping 2 frets and using P5 to lower string 5 and raise string 10 to anchor the chord.

[Alexander Belanger]

Thank you, Dave! Sorry, I just get a little over my head sometimes. I definitely should spend some more time looking at the E9th neck. I appreciate the feedback. I will upload some photos when I get home later today!

So on the C6 neck, going from C7 -> Cdom7, pedal 5 down, you would slide the bar from Fret 12 to Fret 10 to get that dominant sound? That would change fret 12 (C,F,A,C,E,G,A,C,E,D) to (C,D,Bb,G,E,D,Bb,G,E,C) on Fret 10, and you could pick 1,3,4,5 or 3,4,5,10 or, 7,8,9,10, etc. for a Cdom 7 voicing?

[Richard Sinkler]

Adding knee levers is much more involved. Finding the right place under the guitar can be a real pain. I'm really good at working on Carters, and I probably wouldn't take on a knee lever installation job.

[Dave Grafe]

Exactly

[Alexander Belanger]

Cool Cool! I'm excited to use that while practicing later! I appreciate the fretboard help, Dave!

Copy that Richard. I will not be adding any pedals anytime soon, haha! Thanks for the help with the rods though.

[Alexander Belanger]

Here is a photo of the bottom of my steel. Sorry, it took me a couple of days to get this uploaded.

[Alexander Belanger]

Let me know if you would like any other photos of the guitar! Does it matter which rod and bellcrank I buy (either the 2 hole or the 4 hole)?

[Richard Sinkler]

Let me know if you would like any other photos of the guitar! Does it matter which rod and bellcrank I buy (either the 2 hole or the 4 hole)?

This is a Carter bellcrank (pull bar). They don't come in 2 or 4 hole versions.



You can get them from Michael Yahl at PSG Parts. You also need the brass pull pin (aka: dog bone) and the correct length rods.

https://www.psgparts.com/shop/14-117p-p ... ategory=29

[Tucker Jackson]

Could be wrong, but I don't think Michael Yahl offers the option to bend a Carter pull rod to go around a dog bone. If you don't have a way to put the hook on the end of the rod yourself, it would make more sense to get one of the locking pins with the screw in the end. That way, you could use a straight rod. You would just cut any excess rod (if necessary).
https://www.psgparts.com/shop/category/ ... -29/page/2

And then you'll need the pull rod (.093 fits Carter).
https://www.psgparts.com/shop/category/all-pull-rods-19

You'll need some hex nuts (#3), but he seems to be out of stock at the moment. I think Williams has them.

[Richard Sinkler]

I thought he had the rods that AL Briscoe had in stock when he sold the Carter stock to Michael. Maybe not.

[Alexander Belanger]

I couldn't ever find the parts that I need specifically, but I think I found somewhere up in North SLC that is able to help with it. I am going to see if I can sit in when they work on it. Thanks again for all of your help!

[Johnie King]

Flipped the picture .