12 string pedal steel guitar SD or S?

[Melody Freeman]

When purchasing a 12 string pedal steel guitar with 7 or 8 pedals and 5 knee levers, is it best to buy an SD versus an S because of having room for the mechanisms, or are there companies that can do all the mechanisms for an S?

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I suspect that every builder will be secretly happier building a fully loaded SD Uni but I also believe that every builder can and does do the single body.

When you get into doubled up levers (LKL1 & LKL2, e.g.), the double body makes the ergonomic positioning of the levers easier to work out. Although my new Sierra single body with 8 levers is ergonomically excellent.
But with a more standard array, the primary deciding factor between S & SD will be weight & playing comfort. re: playing comfort, nobody can determine what's most comfortable except you.

[Jerry Overstreet]

It can be a personal thing. One's literal body size can come into play as well. Whereas a larger person might find the wider body more comfortable, a smaller framed person, like myself, might like the way a single fits the body.

Another factor might be the stability of a little heavier SD model. Depending on maker, might have less wobble and wiggle etc. than a single. Also weight is a factor for some players.

FWIW, I played Crown series Sierra 14s for several years. These were built on a single frame. Worked great for me.

ZumSteel built a S12U uni on a single frame for many years. Lots of players such as Jeff Newman, Joe Wright are among those who played them.

Absolutely the new Sierra guitars or the Euro built Schild universal 12s should be a consideration depending on budget.

Mullen also now builds a single 12.

Many choices and decisions to be made. Good Luck.

[Bill McCloskey]

I just ordered an S12 from MSA. My current steel is an s12. Never saw the need for a resting place for my hands.

[Dennis Detweiler]

I've owned both. I prefer the single body U-12. My current old models are maple body MSA's (7+6) and are heavy, so stability is not an issue. They are rugged, non-issue guitars. The new MSA's have many more features.
Padded SD-12 guitars are great for taking a short nap.

[Larry Allen]

I’ve also had both and like the freedom of not being anchored down with the large pad and being closer to the strings, on my S10s I use a small computer wrist rest, 2”x24”. $25 Amazon..

[Jerry Overstreet]

I think Larry plays Excel guitars. Didn't mean to slight that brand. Very compact and lightweight guitars with tons of features. I believe Mitsuo's universals are all single body.

Not sure, but I believe Williams can build them either S or SD. Another choice.

[Larry Allen]

Aloha Jerry. Yes after having several different guitars I settled on Excels several years ago..

[Bobby D. Jones]

Here is a pad I built for a MSA Classic many years ago. Complete with bar and pick holder, At the key head.


My present gig guitar has a pad with bar holder. Not much room with the Keyless head. The GFI guitar has a bracket on the changer end of the pad, For my tuner to attach in full view.



Pads are wood bar with layer of quilt filler and Naga-Hyde cover. Bar Bed section just Magic Marker black.
Both pads are installed with Industrial Velcro no holes drilled in guitar. And are removable for casing guitar.

Edited about tuner bracket attached to the pad.

[Jon Jaffe]

In my opinion, S-12 is all you need. Why carry around all that excess baggage? Also, I'd opt for a keyless guitar.

,

They do not build Klines anymore, but Williams' are built keyless. Here is Greg Cutshaw. His hat is larger, but the guitar is the same size.

[Thornton Lewis]

I have a Williams Sd12 because that's what came on the market when I wanted to move to a uni from an E9.
I find the pad allows/encourages the bad habit of resting your lower arm on the pad which reduces the speed and freedom of your right hand. Most unis are heavy enough not to need the additional weight for stability. I would encourage you to go s12 especially if you already play single body.
If you have 8 levers like Jon, call ground control and see what they say.

[Fred Treece]

I have two 12-strings; a Carter and a Williams. I think they are both called “wide body”, rather than SD12. The Williams measures 10” front to back, which I believe is the same width as a Williams SD10. The pad is 3-1/2” wide. The Carter body is about 8-1/2, and has no pad.

Both guitars are more comfortable for me to play than my S10. I’m tall, so the extra leg room helps with the ergonomics of long legs and big feet.

I didn’t think I’d like the pad, but it actually helps with keeping a proper flat forearm-wrist angle, and getting my seat adjusted to the right height. The only time I rest my hands on the pad is when I’m not playing - which I think might be its primary function.

I don’t own nor have I ever played a normal-width S12. I imagine it would work out just fine for someone who has a more average physique. I can’t speak to any differences as far as tone or setup mechanics.

[Dennis Detweiler]

When playing the C6 neck on a D-10 you have no arm rest or pad. It has the feel of a S-10. Tit for tat.

[Melody Freeman]

I appreciate all of your comments about the 12 string S versus SD. They are very helpful!

[Dave Mudgett]

For me, it's totally about ergonomics. I'm tall, with long legs and long arms. On a typical narrow S10, my knees practically run into the pedal rods and my knees are in the wrong position relative to the levers. Quite a few years ago, someone took a photo of me on a BMI S-10. I just looked so uncomfortable, and I was. Shortly thereafter, I sold all my single-body 10-strings.

My Zum S12 universal is just wide enough to work, but I'd be more comfortable on an SD-12. It's such a great guitar that I haven't bothered to try to replace it. But as a result, when I don't need more than 10-string E9, I often use my SD-10.

To the OP - I really think it would be useful to sit behind some of each and see which works for you. I imagine that if you're significantly under 6' tall, an S-12 single-wide, no pad, would be just fine - perhaps significantly preferable. But if you're 6' or taller, I think an SD-12 would be a good thing to check out.

There is no "One Size Fits All". And BTW - just because you have a pad doesn't mean you have to rest your arms on it while playing. Properly set up, it's pretty much like having the C6 neck on a D10, ergonomically. Only more comfortable if your wrists to drop down for a bit. And feeling that pad even momentarily reminds me to keep my wrists straight. Which harkens back to my piano teacher 55-60 years ago rapping the top of my wrist with a ruler when I let them sag.

[Bobby D. Jones]

The one thing that is sort of a tradeoff when going to a lighter S10 or S12 guitar. The knee levers need to be set up with a little longer lever travel.

I bought 1 S12 that was set up for very short knee lever movement. That was one of the problems the previous owner had with the guitar. The guitar was moving around when Left levers was engaged. When I got the guitar I moved some rods in the bell cranks. So they travel a little more, To Hit the stops, But takes less pressure on lever. Guitar now is very stable.

[J D Sauser]

If you have long legs (average or longer) the added depth of an SD or 1 1/2 or even 1 1/4 body helps not be be cramped fighting for space. It also put knee levers in a better position and yes, helps builders stuff these animals with complex setups.
I like 1 1/2 or even 1 1/4 (modern MSA S12 shape, which is very similar to the original MSA width too), while I feel that my "little" narrow and short S12 Excel Superb while being a travel gem may not be the most comfortable to play for a 6' guy like me.

On the other hand, I must confess that have nothing but disdain for "arm/wrist rests". NO musical instrument has that, either you play or you rest. There is a rather good supply of "LazyBOY" chairs in the US if rest is what one needs

I had one SD12 (a Carter a fellow Forumite plays now for over 20 years) which had the typical "rest"-pad on the rear and I very quickly made a thin, non-cushioned thin-pad for it so it would just protect the wood and cover the holes and most of all not get into my way.

I know, Lloyd Green has played his iconic SD10 with a cushioned pad for most his live and there is no way I would challenge HIM on that, but I would also point out, that he's displayed a good erect posture and hand position for his whole life too. Whereas many D10 and SD-rest-10/12 players tend to slouch over their "axes" with one or even both wrists resting on that rear neck or pad, in most cases with questionable results. In my opinion, a player's wrists ought to touch nothing but thin air.

I know, strong opinions, aren't you glad you asked!... J-D.

[Dave Mudgett]

On the other hand, I must confess that have nothing but disdain for "arm/wrist rests". NO musical instrument has that, either you play or you rest. There is a rather good supply of "LazyBOY" chairs in the US if rest is what one needs

I understand someone not wanting a pad. I don't question that in the slightest. But I don't get the 'disdain' and sarcasm about them. A pad hasn't hurt Lloyd's playing the slightest bit - that's where these started.

People do things differently for their own reasons. Many times, they have bloody good reasons.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Another factor not mentioned, depends on if your guitar is set up with a slight tilt forward, backwards or level? I've always tended to set my guitar slightly tilted forward which brings a pad or C6th neck more in contact with my wrists when you display correct posture. One of our local steel players has a more extreme forward tilt on his set up. I'm long bodied and short legs and sit taller at my guitar (slight tilt forward) but have to use a drop (extended) vertical knee, which in turn has to be detachable to close the case lid. In my early days I played in cowboy boots (taller heel) which also solved my vertical knee problem. I haven't played in boots for years.

[Bobby D. Jones]

To answer your post question.
Most S12 guitars have room for 7 or 8 pedals and 5 knee levers.
When I got the GFI Ultra Key head S12 7P 4KL guitar it was set up Emmons pedals and LK E's, I changed it to Day Set Up pedals and moved the E's to Right knee.

The GFI Ultra keyless S12 7P 5KL was set up Extended E9th Emmons, I changed it to Day Setup, 7P 5KL E's to left knee Universal tuning.

Had to move many parts under both guitars making the changes. All changes on both guitars was easy to make, With space to spare.