7th with 10th A pedal combination

[Florent Guépin]

Hi,
Since most of us probably tune the C# lower (A pedal on the B's) and the 7th & 1st normal (F#), the combination of the C# with the F# doesn't work.
My question is : Do you simply don't combinate them or is there a solution ?
If you can bring me some light in this subject, it would be very kind of you

Thanks
Florent

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Yes -- you have discovered a very real thing.

A common solution that is used by many people, myself included, is to have an extra pull on the A pedal that lowers strings 7 and 1 just the little bit necessary to match the sweetened (flat) C#. It is sometimes called an intonation compensator or a tuning compensator or just compensators.

[Andrew Frost]

Sometimes the cabinet drop on E9 can help with this issue.
I tune F#s more or less as the middle point between the two extremes.
With pedals down, F#s drop about 5 cents for the better.
They are still a hair flat of ideal with pedals up, and a hair sharp of ideal with pedals down but I am aware of how the guitar behaves as such, and intonate accordingly.

Any tuning that has both a 6 and a 9 will present this conundrum, in essence.
You are basically making E6/9 or E13 with your C# pedal.
The D on top of C6 for example can be tuned with the 6th(A) or with 5th(G) of the tuning, or somewhere in between...

6ths want to sit flat. 9ths want to sit sharp....

[Ian Rae]

I have compensating pulls on the A and C pedals which lower string 7 slightly. These are easy to install on any steel.

[Florent Guépin]

Yes -- you have discovered a very real thing.

A common solution that is used by many people, myself included, is to have an extra pull on the A pedal that lowers strings 7 and 1 just the little bit necessary to match the sweetened (flat) C#. It is sometimes called an intonation compensator or a tuning compensator or just compensators.

Thank you John. The extra pull is the same as the others (bell crank, rod...) ?

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Yes. Exactly as if it were any other pedal pull.
Your emphasis in this installation will be to get the easiest and most minimal amount of pull. Ideally you don't want your foot to feel it at all as the compensator engages at the very end of the pedal movement but sometimes it can be noticeable and in fact it sometimes can be objectionable, messing up the feeling of a positive stop.

You want the rod in the bellcrank hole/slot closest to the cross shaft and the changer hole furthest from the changer-top/string.

As Andrew pointed out, it is the one time when cabinet drop can actually be your friend, doing some of the compensating for you.

[Florent Guépin]

Yes -- you have discovered a very real thing.

A common solution that is used by many people, myself included, is to have an extra pull on the A pedal that lowers strings 7 and 1 just the little bit necessary to match the sweetened (flat) C#. It is sometimes called an intonation compensator or a tuning compensator or just compensators.

Hi Jon, i installed the compensators. It's great to have the C# in tune with the F# in many cases. Sometimes it sounds strange because when i release the A (or pull), i can hear the F# going "out of tune" if i hit the F# before (or if the string vibrate by sympathy).

Also, i wonder how to be in tune with other instruments. If the A pedal is pulled and the B strings are the major third, the root of the chord will be the more in tune with other instruments, so i will put the bar where the root is in tune, so the third will sound flat compared to other instruments, right ? The vibrato is mixing the wrong notes with the right notes ?!

Now with the F# if i'm doing a F# minor, as i pull the A and B pedal to have the third and fifth of the chord, the bar has to be slightly higher than if the pedals are not pulled right ? So if the following chord doesn't use A and B pedal, i'll have to put the bar slightly lower to compensate.

So these compensators are usefull but they are adding some other complications...

What are your thoughts about that ???

Thanks !

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Ha. I try to avoid all tuning discussions because I am not even close to being as smart as a lot if other people on the subject. But....

Yes, you have introduced new, additional complexity. There is truth to the observation that " but 'Xxxxx Xxxxxx' didn't have compensators and he sounded in tune!" The ear and the bar are essential tools, always. The bar is not just a movable fret. It is also a tuning compensator.

There can be two different definitions on 'an in-tune PSG' -- 1) internally in tune (in tune with itself) and 2) in tune with the rest of the world. If we could actually achieve perfect Equal Temperament (straight-up on a tuner)
I think we'd still sweeten some intervals because that's what the ear wants to hear. But with other tuning issues of the PSG, there are added complications to achieving perfect ET.

What I have discovered: too much time spent in the woodshed and not enough time playing with real people can be hazardous to your health. A guitar that sounds really sweet at home can be difficult on the bandstand unless/until you learn to sound good blending with the other instruments.
The object of the intonation compensators -- to achieve beatless 4th and 5th with the B's F#s and C#s of E9 strings 1, 5, 7, & 10, pedals up, pedals down runs somewhat counter to the objectives of Equal Temperament which is a big compromise. To say that "the solution lies in xxxxxx....." is to open the door to the discussions that have occupied dozens and dozens of pages of Steel Guitar Forum. I've always run screaming from them which is why I don't know as much as I could.

I won't pretend that there is a single answer (as proven by those dozens of pages). Personally, I've worked toward learning to not obsess over some of the things that I hear at home. My career is NOT as a solo recitalist. I have compromised the F# compensators so that they do not flatten the string quite as much and I'm always experimenting with not sweetening the A pedal 5th/10th strings quite so much. These sorts of things are more consistent with the guitars & keyboards, regardless of how imperfect they seem in the intense listening environment of the practice studio.

[Florent Guépin]

Thanks very much Jon for your "light"
I'll follow your wises advices.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

....
I'll follow your wises advices.....

Florent -- any contribution of mine to the subject of tuning that resembles clarity of mind is merely an illusion. I strongly recommend that you dig deeper and read discussions on this subject. Although the length and depth of the discussions will cloud your mind, my own words here are much too incomplete for anyone to base their understanding or their procedures on.

[Roger Rettig]

Jon

'Clarity of mind' is subjective; next to mine, yours is laser-like.

This thread has provided the answer to one I just started earlier today: no responses to mine yet, but thanks to all for confirming my suspicions.

Compensators should be added to both the A and C pedals?

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Compensators should be added to both the A and C pedals?

Roger, man.....for me, this is way too complicated to confidently address.

My personal answer is No. The C pedal, with its cabinet drop on the 1st string....I tune the 4th string C pedal to a unison with the 1st string at just a few cents flat of 0 (straight up). No compensator. Consequently I also tune the 5th string on the C pedal differently than the 5th string on the A pedal to keep it in tune with 4.

What makes life interesting is that my brand new Sierra has VERY little cab drop so I've had to rethink how I tune the open F#'s. And everything else down that domino line of affected perfect 4th & 5th pitches.

[Roger Rettig]

Jon

I'm leaning towards just the 7th/A pedal comp.

My LeGrande seems to have almost no cabinet-drop, even after the counter-force was removed. (That might have been $285 I could have saved back in 2000.)

The 'new' JCH sounds better on E9, but is a bit touchy re: the 7th. That prompts me to ask for a comp on my impending Rittenberry.

[Lee Baucum]

Ah. I am reminded of the early days, about 1972ish, when I purchased a beautiful little Sho~Bud Maverick. 3 pedals / No knee-levers.

I had been playing guitar for a long time when this guitar became available.

Thankfully, the guitar came with a tuning guide. I had no idea how to tune it. (What's up with these first two strings????)

I got out my trusty little guitar tuner and tuned it up and started experimenting with those pedals. Ah, so that's what they do!!

I'll be sounding like Buddy Cage by the end of the week....

Then I had the head-on collision with those F# strings. I'm sure I tuned them correctly. Something sounds terrible.

Wait a minute.....maybe it's the A pedal that's out....darn tuner...bad batteries?

Around and around in a circle. No internet in those days. No other steel guitarists around.

I just knew that I had discovered something...


~Lee

[Jon Light (deceased)]

No internet in those days.....

At least that means it left you a lot more time to chase that tail.

[Lee Baucum]

Then there was that other dumpster fire that was started when I "discovered" you could chime a 3rd.

Back in circles with the G#s and the C#s and the D#...

[Frank Freniere]

What I have discovered: too much time spent in the woodshed and not enough time playing with real people can be hazardous to your health. A guitar that sounds really sweet at home can be difficult on the bandstand unless/until you learn to sound good blending with the other instruments.

Amen!

[Tucker Jackson]

Also, i wonder how to be in tune with other instruments. If the A pedal is pulled and the B strings are the major third, the root of the chord will be the more in tune with other instruments, so i will put the bar where the root is in tune, so the third will sound flat compared to other instruments, right ? The vibrato is mixing the wrong notes with the right notes ?!

Yes, correct. You will place the bar so the root note is in tune. The 3rd of your chord may be flat compared to the guitar or keyboard -- but you'll sound sweet and will be in the same tuning as the harmony singers, horns, and strings.

Now with the F# if i'm doing a F# minor, as i pull the A and B pedal to have the third and fifth of the chord, the bar has to be slightly higher than if the pedals are not pulled right ? So if the following chord doesn't use A and B pedal, i'll have to put the bar slightly lower to compensate.

Yes, that's right. As always, even if your stay in the same fret, you will be making very small bar adjustments when changing pedal positions. The goal is to always have the root note match the root of the other instruments. No need to look at the fret markers -- let your ear automatically guide the bar to the correct place where it sounds best.