What would you do if eliminated the C pedal

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 27 Apr 2023 3:55 am

OK, please no flames as I know the C pedal is sacred to many players. I hardly use it so I thought maybe I could eliminate the standard C pull and use the C pedal for another change.

Also, I play a U 12 so there could be a B6th change to add.

Thoughts & suggestions?

Thomas Alexander · Post by **Thomas Alexander** » 27 Apr 2023 4:02 am

If I was swapping the C out for something else, I would probably take inspiration from Ralph Mooney or Sneaky Pete's copedents--they each had a few unique changes worth trying.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 27 Apr 2023 4:13 am

I’m toying with a 3 pedal 5 knee copedent that has standard AB moves on pedal 2+3 with pedal 1 raising 3+6 G#-Bb and the E-F#s on a knee lever. I already have one guitar with E-F# on RKL and I use it a lot.

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 27 Apr 2023 6:36 am

I got rid of pedal C on an old Sierra "universal", to expand the 5 pedal options. I moved the E-F# to a knee lever so that I could still have the "C" pedal (with A and B pressed down). I really prefered that since you can really milk in a nice change with that knee.

I haven't terrorized my Dekley in a while...may do that again and free up the C pedal for something else

Tom

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 27 Apr 2023 9:22 am

Many years ago, I put the E to F# change on a knee lever, just to see if I would like it. I really did. Lots of cool things to play with that one change.

So, the next step was to add the B to C# change to that same lever, thinking it would replace the C pedal.

Again, it was pretty good for some things; however, there are so many great things to play bouncing on and off the B and C pedals.

I never could get to the point where I could quickly and accurately hit the B pedal and that knee-lever and then release both, and then engage them both again.

I even tried using the vertical lever. No way!

So much easier to play those licks, runs, and scales using just one foot.

You'll never know until you try!

John Swain · Post by **John Swain** » 27 Apr 2023 10:02 am

There's a Buddy Emmons seminar where he said he never used the C pedal, but there are some great Lloyd Green licks on it !

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 27 Apr 2023 12:37 pm

I seldom use the C pedal. I have a few pet licks using it, but could get by without it. If you play "Apple Jack", the C pedal seems to be a requirement for the speed and accuracy. A lot of BC can be duplicated with bar movement and the F lever on slow tunes. "Look At Us" intro can be played without the BC lever and using the F lever. In A, instead of sliding 10th fret to the 12th fret and playing BC, slide to the 13th fret and play the F lever. Playing on strings 3 and 4. Either way works.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 27 Apr 2023 2:23 pm

John Swain wrote:Buddy Emmons ..... said he never used the C pedal

He must have forgotten when he played with Ernest Tubb. On Drivin' Nails In My Coffin he definitely used it - with his right foot! (around 2'09")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnEMOQTh27sely

I play a uni 12 with a Day setup, so my C pedal is in position 1, nicely out of the way until I need it, which is sometimes. Apart from the obvious, I use it:-

1. If I want to raise 5 but not 8
2. If I want to raise 5 and lower 6 (which is on LKL)

Bear in mind that the C pedal started life as a means of lowering 6 or 3 in the old days when you couldn't raise and lower the same string. You engaged it and moved back two frets. It's a lost art with modern changers. The F#m chord turned out useful but was not its primary purpose.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 27 Apr 2023 3:23 pm

I love the C pedal, but as coincidence has it I was just thinking about a hypothetical set up yesterday that would do away with it, so this stuff is fresh on my mind.

I think one consideration is what sounds good combined with pedal B. The B pedal really works nicely when combined with almost any typical B6 pedal... with P5 it would be a #5 on C#9, with P6 its a sus4 of E9, and creates some nice D6 options, w P8 it would create a b9 dim sort of thing. I've had the B pedal adjacent to a P7 type change ( A# & C# raise on 6&5 ) and it creates a useful F#7#9 because of that string 3 high A natural on the top
What you have adjacently on the other side of your current C pedal would be a significant consideration also, unless you're going to rejig the whole configuration...

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 28 Apr 2023 12:28 am

I have my B pedal duplicated on CLR, above pedals 5&7 (6 is on RKR beyond the ½ stop that lowers the Es). I use this "B lever" a lot - it's a standard B6 change.

manny escobar · Post by **manny escobar** » 28 Apr 2023 5:46 am

At 82 my playing days are dying out. In the early eighties a top local player, Billy Marshall had set it up on a left knee right so he would just move/rock off his left foot to play B&C. Another local player, Ralph Paulin told me he had done it. (Both pickers are no longer with us.) I liked the idea and made the change. The in & out of playing AB&C became a major factor and I use it all the time. I don`t have to take my foot off the A pedal. Oddly, I was told by Ralph Paulin that he and Billy Marshall switched back. Go figure!

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 28 Apr 2023 6:25 am

They likely switched back to regain that quick tap on B/C on fast tunes? Slow is no issue having it on a knee lever. When I played a show in Branson, we worked up Sugarfoot Rag. The lead player played single note melody, so I played two harmony parts above him. The B/C pedal was crucial to quickly getting there. Having it on a knee lever wouldn't have been quick enough or if it was on a knee, the guitar would have been sliding sideways.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 28 Apr 2023 8:31 am

What’s missing in your style of playing that you wish you had? If you have to ask what change should replace the one you’re not using, it might turn into another one you won’t use.

I notice a lot of players don’t raise both E’s with the C pedal. I do, and would miss it if it wasn’t there.

Before I would consider dropping a change, I would spend some time focusing on it to see why I’m not using it. For me, it would be the Franklin pedal. But then I spend some time with it and decide nope. At least not yet.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 30 Apr 2023 3:48 pm

When I use the B&C pedal it's for a minor tone and I can find minors in other places on the neck. I might add that I rarely play traditional country and play the U-12 as Joe Wright once said as one big tuning. I use the the Jeff Newman U-12 pedal setup with an added LKL. My Boo-Wha pedal is my 4th pedal. Maybe there is a change I could use with that in the C pedal position?

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 30 Apr 2023 6:32 pm

You could raise F# to G with Pedal C. That would give you a G#maj7 with the boo-wah right next door, and also some A9 tones with pedal B on the other side.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 1 May 2023 6:03 am

Len Amaral wrote:Also, I play a U 12 so there could be a B6th change to add.

To experiment with a quick B6th change on the C-pedal, Tune the String-4 change so it doesn't do anything, and tune the string-5 change so it only raises from B-to-C.
Now in B6th mode, that pedal is analogous to the E9 F-lever.
You could take the rod from string-4 and put it on String-9-B, to raise both B's to C (but your Boo-Wha on P4 already raises String-9 B-to-C).

So three frets up form your Open B6th chord, you get a 7th chord.
I call this my Robert Randolph pedal, as it opens up alot of pentatonics.

You can play pedals "C + Boo-wha" together, and it gives you the big 7th chord with a huge Bass note (by just raising string-5 a half step).

Also, in E9th when you combine pedals B and C now, you get a minor chord, for example, if you are playing a C chord at fret 3AB, two frets up with BC is now D-minor.

Just an idea. Easy to try.
In S12U terms, it gets you closer to what Buddy and other players do on the C6th left knee-lever cluster... but in B6th it means you raise and lower your B and G# strings a half tone.

Raybob Bowman · Post by **Raybob Bowman** » 1 May 2023 12:00 pm

I play A6/D9 uni, coming from Maurice Andersons's Bb6/Eb9.

I put the "E-F#" change on LKV. I also moved E9 pedals 1&2 over to 2&3 and then moved my "C6 p4 change to pedal 1. Speaking in terms of E9/B6, that raises lower two G# strings whole step, giving Bmaj7. That pedal used with E9 1st pedal gives the 5 chord change of "C6 p7". I also moved the "C6 p8" dim chord pedal to RKR. I've had the "C6 p6" on RKL opposite my RKR which is main "E9" lever, in E9/B6 terms, it raises D# strings to E.

If that explanation worked for anybody, I'll be amazed, but what I end up with is all basic E9 changes and 4 of 5 C6 pedal changes, all done on 3 pedals and all knees, not having to move my foot to unseen places while playing. I also made setup/teardown at gigs much less time with 4 of 8 pedals taken off not being used any more.

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 3 May 2023 7:38 am

When I first started trying to learn pedal steel years ago I built my first guitar and did not put a C pedal on it. I put a knee lever, (RKR) to raise the 4th E to F#. Played like that for years. When you apply A & B pedals and add the knee lever it gives the same thing as the C pedal. It was at that time a Mooney Thing. You can set it up so that it will be as fast as the C pedal or I thought so then. RKL lowered 2 & 6. J.R. Rose

Steve Mueller · Post by **Steve Mueller** » 3 May 2023 11:50 am

Just got my new Williams Ext E9 S12 5 X 4 a couple of months ago. I changed my C pedal to raising both B's to C years ago. My LKR raises 4 and 8 a full step so A and B plus LKR is my version of the traditional C pedal but with added versatility of being able to add and subtract LKR while A and B are down. The B to C change gives you an extended string of whole tones, dominant 7+5, Am6, full 4 note diminished with 4 and 8 lowered, and AmMaj7.
Pedal 4 lowers string 5 B a half step for dominant 7 and 7b5 chords. I've and a lot of fun playing Great American Songbook standards with this setup.
I should mention I raise my 7th string a half step with RKR so I can get a Dom7th13th and 7#9 / alt diminished with the combination of AB plus LKR plus RKR.
This setup opens up a whole new world of chordal melodies on an E9 tuning if you're inclined in that direction.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 3 May 2023 2:25 pm

I want to thank everyone who commented on this topic. Lots of ideas and I am enthusiastic about trial & error to see what works. I'll report back and let you know how I make out.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 3 May 2023 4:36 pm

When I built my first steel about 1970 I only got A-B-C pedals working. Till I started playing it. I learned a lot on that old guitar.

The B-C pedal minor at 5th chord position is handy and has a different voicing that fits in some songs better than A pedal at 1st chord position.

I would not want to try to play Someday Soon in G without a C pedal. It lets you move the Em and Bm up and down the neck and easy to go to.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 3 May 2023 10:57 pm

You could try to move the E-F# pullrod on the high E string to the low E string instead.

Make sure this E-F# is split tuned with the E-Eb lever to give an F note

This will work quite nicely with or without the B-C# pull on the B string. Just back off the nylon tuner on the B string to check if you also want the B-C# there or not.

It will also fuction nicely together with the B pedal.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 6 May 2023 4:53 am

I did what Peter Burak suggested and backed off the 4th string all the way so it didn't raise the E to F# then tuned the C pedal 5th string B to C and it created a wonderful 7th chord with the Boo-Wha pedal.

I have 2 gigs this week so it will give me a chance to try this change in a playing situation. But I can see huge possibilities with this change. Very inspiring.