New version of the B6

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 27 Nov 2006 9:58 pm

"I don't mean to badger you, Jim. It just seems like you're dodging my specific question with generalities about creativity. What I want to know is, do you use your A plus RKL together like a regular C pedal, or not? Do you have a different position for getting those kinds of licks, perhaps something I hadn't thought of? Or do you never raise two strings by a full step at the same time?"

Just to explain more clearly without licks or parts in the answer...

I'm not dodging you at all. I just have no basis of understanding the question. I don't own an E9-copedent guitar...I tried it on the GFI, REALLY tried it...and did on the Shobuds and MSA I've had in the past. I don't get the tuning, don't like it, can't find "pockets" on it (something not important to you but critical to me) and it just felt toally unnatural.

I'm also an "unschooled" musician. You can say "D6add9" and I couldn't tell you what notes are in it to save my life, nor would I know what pedals to push to find it. Neither, on the B6 tuning, can I tell you what note I'm playing most of the time...nor what chord. I can't play scales. I couldn't do that on guitar either, and survived 40 years of gigs and miscellaneous sessions. I CAN play pentatonics and blues scales, and a lot of other things - I simply do not know the names of them. Ask me to play a mi7 chord, and I probably can't. PLAY a mi7 chord and ask me to play the same thing, and I probably can.

What I DO find is I can sit down at this new B6 copedent on my GFI, or even better on my Fender 400, and find things quickly. I can play what I "hear" for the most part. I have a LONG way to go, but I was not getting anywhere at all on E9 and have family obligations that prevent me from spending several hours a week (if you include driving and practice of specific excercises) and the $ on lessons, especially for a setup that just feels "wrong". So I went with what feels right...and the GFI is just icing on the cake, as it opens up a whole new way of thinking/playing. It takes getting used to, but most things are far easier. A few are toughter and I'm adjusting and/or might modify things. It' a work in progress. But the views that it's limited, or that you can only play "Sneaky" stuff, or some of the email comments I can't print are wrong - all those limits are in the player's imagination.

E9 is probably a great thing for some people, maybe even MOST. But not me. and I've found a few others feel the same way, and by posting a version that can be set up on a basic 3+4 10-string, a few other frustrated players just might be tempted to try it. If they like it, great. If they don't that's Ok as well. It's just offered up as a tool to play music with, not to change the world or destroy the world of pedal steel (more email comments).

But back to the questions - I am not ducking you at all. It's just that to me you're asking questions in Calculus and I'm not through pre-algebra. I can't answer a question I don't understand, and especially if I have no reference materials (i.e. a steel tuned the way you're asking the questions about) so I can't even "hunt-and-peck" an answer.

FWIW I have a list of about 200 songs with the key listed (sometimes more than one) hanging up over my computer desk, with all of them on iTunes. I play my way through parts of the list by ear. Sometimes I work specific licks out (almost always if there's a specific hook), but more often I try to find MY way through the tune. Like many players, I'm developing a set of "fallback" licks/positions for when things get dicey. But I tab nothing out, I don't annotate anything, I have no written "music" except a few chord charts for some more complicated things.

That's how I play steel. Also howI've played lapsteel and Dobro for a couple decades, and guitar/bass/mandolin for longer than that.

I recall a comment b0b made about jambands being an excuse for not rehearsing. Quite the contrary, and I can relate it to my steel approach - jambands I've known or been a part of rehearse relentlessly - you can't play 3-400 songs without charts unless you've worked them a lot.

I hope that helps explain my reasons for the somewhat incomplete or confused answers. I really thought you were trying to back me into a corner to prove a point, b0b. I realize that is not true, that we just approach things very differently, and draw on completely foreign sets of resources.

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 27 Nov 2006 10:23 pm

i had a jamband once

and we had a really cool song to....

more like an opus....

25 sections /w time changes, modulations, all the stops....

try not rehearsing that song....

we would spend 3 hour practices on one song!
a couple times a week....

problem was...if that song cleared the dance floor.....we didn't know "Play that Funky Music White Boy",
to get them dancing again.

[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 27 November 2006 at 10:25 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 27 Nov 2006 10:43 pm

""Play that Funky Music White Boy""

Oh, man - that's ON my list!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 28 Nov 2006 10:38 am

Joe Wright does a killer version of it. It was the high point of his show in St. Louis this year.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Nov 2006 5:12 pm

b0b, did any of my responses make sense, or can I clarify any of it? As I said, I'm not ducking thing - it's just hard to answer regarding tunings you don't use, and also without a theory background to pull from.

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 28 Nov 2006 7:08 pm

I got a tuning off the forum a few years ago, I would like to know who the player is . The name is STEEL STUFF. His GFI-12 A6/E9 tuning He is on a photo with his guitar and a little boy or little girl. Yeare ago I tuned my Fender 400 to a A6/E9th. Joe[This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 28 November 2006 at 07:10 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 29 Nov 2006 11:27 am

Jim, I understand what you're saying. What I don't understand is why a bright guy like you goes out of his way to avoid anything that even smells a little bit like "theory". Music theory is not some obscure mystic knowledge. It's just a special way of counting from 1 to 7, using musical letter names instead of numbers.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 29 Nov 2006 5:35 pm

I'm not really avoiding it, I just never studied it early on and learned to play by ear. I also have an admittedly tough time with math (even though I was an honor student in everything else!) and I haven't been able to find resources that don't seem far too math-related for me to comprehend. I've been through classes, read books...it just doesn't "stick". I know a few others in the same boat, and it IS difficult communicating musical thoughts at times.

That's why the "pockets" thread was so oddly frustrating - it's not a "theory" thing, it's a visual thing, and that's hard to grasp when you know theory...and hard to understand WHY someone doesn't grasp it when you DON'T know theory.

Seriously, b0b - you have no idea how hard I have tried to learn scales, chord structures, intervals, whatever. I don't know why it doesn't click.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 30 Nov 2006 5:24 pm

The G to Am (or I to IIm) change can also be found if you have a KL or pedal that flats your thirds (G# to G on the E9 tuning). The bar must be moved up 2 frets. I have used that change many times in place of the B-C pedal change. On the 'I Fall To Pieces', I always intro the song with a I, IIm, IIIm, IV walk-up using just the 'O' pedal as it has frequently been referred to. On five of my guitars I have it mounted to the left of my 1,2,3 pedals (Emmons setup) and frequently use it with the 1st pedal to get a '6th-sounding' IV-chord change. On Jim's new tuning, he could get the same change with his pedals 1,2 and his RKR using strings 1,3,4,5 etc. and moving the bar 2 and then 4 frets for the walkup I described, then 5 frets open. . .no B-C pedals needed.
PRR

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Dec 2006 8:41 am

UPDATE -

All the correct split rods came in from GFI, and with Bob (at GFI)'s and Paul's invaluable and kind "fly by wire" instructions, fine-tuning sugestions, problem solving and loads of patience, the splits are now working perfectly.

I'm still figuring out the theory (a big thanks to b0b for some personal assistance that is much appreciated) but the 2nd pedal/RKR split gives me a 7th that is really useful and also I think a diminished when I add the third pedal; the pedal 1 and 3 combination (I'm used to two-footing on my Fenders so this is a normal move for me) look to hit an augmented chord; the LKL/RKR is at least a partial diminished to me.

If anyone sees any other things chord-wise that I'm missing, please let me know.

The other nice thing is the 5th and 1st string splits make for some fun and unusual "lick" stuff that I will definitely be adopting.

Paul's advising me on some minor adjustments that don't affect tuning or playability but will just make the guitar more "correct" as far as setup - but overall, it's ready...and really fun...to play.

Hopefully I'll have it at a show or something someday so people can test-drive it. Like Russ said, it may seem limiting and weird, but once you *play* it the logic and versatility really fall into place.

Thanks for all the input as well. Even somewhat negative comments are appreciated, as it makes me go "find" things that can't supposedly be done.

But the Bach piece I'll leave to Doug!

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 9 Dec 2006 9:26 am

"Seriously, b0b - you have no idea how hard I have tried to learn scales, chord structures, intervals, whatever. I don't know why it doesn't click."

Jim, we have that in common. I'm still confused by 8th grade geometry of how to figure the heigth of a tree by it's shadow!

I've had to compromise my confusion by accepting that "if it don't sound right, it ain't", or if it does sound right, it's OK".

Of course that's grossly egocentric, but it's the only guideline that I've had during my questionable music career.

The only time that I've questioned that was when the first Korg tuners came on the market. I believed the hype about their accuracy until a band member discretely told me that "them guitars need a tuning". $275 down the hatch for dependability!

Oh, I still use tuners to find the middle ground, but I don't hesitate to "fine tune" until my ears don't hurt.

But, back to the subject, I have tuned my inside neck to B6 since I first tried to play "Steeling the Blues" in C#, back in the 1950's.

------------------
<img width=100 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/index.1.jpg>www.genejones.com

Some songs for the season:

Winter Wonderland

The Christmas Song

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 9 Dec 2006 9:42 am

Jim, I've been studying your copedant and have come to the conclusion that it has quite a few similarities to mine when I have the E's lowered. I have 8 pedals but I'm only going to put in a few of them....
[tab]
LKL LKV LKR P1 P2 P3 P6 RKL RKR
F#
C# D# D
G# A
E F D#
B A# C#
G# A
F# G# F
E F D#
C# D
B A# C#
G# A
E C# F
[/tab]

As you can see, when my RKR is depressed my strings 4 through 11 are exactly the same as your strings 1 through 8. Also my pedal 6 does the same as your "C" pedal and my P1 does partially the same as your A pedal. Also, your LKR does the same as my LKV and the bottom half of my LKL> It's interesting that you use the C# note on string 6. That's a good note to have in there as a II in the B scale. The same as the F# in the E9th tuning. I think I could actually play this setup with a little change in thought process but I think it lacks something for me as I'm a Ralph Mooney freak and the high strings aren't there. What might be nice would be to have this on a 12 string with an added G# and F# on top. Check my P6, have you ever thought of adding a change on your C pedal to lower string 9 to F, and string 10 to C#? That'd complete your II chord all the way down. Lastly, good luck with your new GFI and I hope everythings works out great for you........JH in Va.

------------------
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Dec 2006 3:37 pm

Jerry - as I've noted I'm a little theory-stupid, so it'll take me a while to absorb what you said....but as far as the C (or3rd) pedal changes being added that could be a fun idea. I may actually have the parts to do it. I'll check, and if so I might throw it together and see what happens. Nothing about this is etched in stone - it's an initial iteration of the 8-string copedent ported out to a 3+4 to see how it would work on a very basic 10-string setup, so adding some pulls is certainly an idea. thanks for the suggestion.

Jim

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 9 Dec 2006 4:13 pm

Dave,Not only will I share my Meds with you,I bought an Acrylic Rod 8"L X 1" in diameter at a thrift store for fifty cents,if you send me your address I will give it to you.I am currently working on a program for assisted living centers called "Med Swap"..Every Wed. afternoon people meet in the lunchroom and trade Meds...it's a Hoot!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 13 Dec 2006 9:30 pm

Jerry - I checked my parts and it looks like I have the rods, bellcranks and nylon tuners...have to find something to use as the small spacers between the nylon nuts and changer on a GFI, I think...unless those aren't necessary. I'm not sure, so if anyone has an idea about that, chime in.

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 14 Dec 2006 2:19 pm

Let's hear a clip of you playing this copedant ..

After all of this discussion... let's hear it already!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 14 Dec 2006 4:40 pm

Tim, I can send you mp3's of live guitar or bass playing, but I do not have a home recording setup nor a way to post music files. When I do, I will. Plus, I do need some time to get used to it after playing 8-string Fenders with a different pedal layout, string spacing, feel, etc. Playing examples aren't as important to me as the fact that the "experiment" worked very well, and gives me another musical tool.

I've never been a big fan of "look at me" music posts anyway. When someone asks, I have sent them clips or CD's. I'm not into self-promotion - I'd rather just get back into the "band" swing of things. I rarely listen to anyone else's "look at what I did" posts either. I'm sure most of it is good stuff, I just have other priorities.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Jan 2007 6:00 am

This weekend should have enough "loose time" to install the last changes suggested by Jerry - in the meantime, I've really got the GFI playing nicely, and it sounds great - with a Lovetone Brown Source (a very mild overdrive) it gets just a little "dirt" and sounds like a Fender steel though an old tube amp. Very "60's" sounding.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Jan 2007 11:07 am

Just curious, but how do you get a thread like this from the old Forum resurrected here on the new Forum?

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 6 Jan 2007 11:53 am

Jim..Ace hardware has a huge selection of nylon washers in various thicknesses,and diameters.My Blanton steel has a broken keyhead..between strings 3and 4 the roller nut divider broke off in an accident.I placed two small washers on the axle between those two rollers and it cured the problem.no side to side wobbling,and they work better than brass washers because they are slicker,and wont tarnish..Stu

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 6 Jan 2007 12:59 pm

Forgive me for getting briefly off topic , but am I the only one here who's noticed that Earnest Bovine's avatar is a photo of the great violinist Jascha Heifetz?

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 6 Jan 2007 2:42 pm

Mike Shefrin wrote:Forgive me for getting briefly off topic , but am I the only one here who's noticed that Earnest Bovine's avatar is a photo of the great violinist Jascha Heifetz?

Yeah, Jascha did a couple of gigs with Severed Head In A Bag back in the 70's.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 6 Jan 2007 2:54 pm

lol...you changed it!

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 6 Jan 2007 2:57 pm

Anyway, that wasn't Jascha. It was Peewee Herman.