Vertical Fretboards

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 6 Oct 2006 12:22 pm

Barry B.,

My original "neck insert" is still in place. Rosewood or mahogany are good choices. What has been removed is the thin plastic fretboard. There is nothing to guide a player beneath my strings. What you see is a modified fretboard, which has been sliced to accomodate fixity upon a low profile contoured wood molding. The original picture displayed on this post differs from the lowered profile and was offered for the sake of concept; mainly visibility. Structurally, the "plank" between bridges would become incorporated with the HUF in a serious attempt to produce a reasonable facsimile of the concept. Keep in mind, below my strings is black vinyl voidness.
It may occur to you, that there would be no less than 1000 differently designed narrow fretboards, which could easily be mounted on a contoured "neck insert." It would be possible to envision a variety of eye pleasing fret indicators giving rise to an awareness of paler varieties in the market place. There is another disconcertment that has been challenging me of late. That is the individual bars, with differing radiuses, nonmagnetic or magnetic, each chosen after exemplary claims of betterment in design. I was fortunate in attaining the specially made nonmagnetic bar, that was presented to me at a public gathering. A machinist friend who made the bar, initialed the bar, and presented it to me in a protective box with an unique design for closing. I feel that there will be new designs in the future, perhaps to improve the playability of the steel guitar.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 06 October 2006 at 01:25 PM.]

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 6 Oct 2006 3:51 pm

Thanks, Bill. By 'fretless' I was inferring NO frets of any kind, vertical or otherwise ....

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 Oct 2006 1:58 am

Barry B.,

As they say, "Surely you jest." Where does the buck stop in frugality? I've read about parsimonious behavior, indicative of one who finds uses for a variety of discarded articles. Even the very rich, in some instances will go to great lengths to decorate their homes with "aesthetic" flotsam, shaped by the crashing of waves and sand. A steel guitar with no markers is out of the question. To omit the visual attraction, which signifies the complexities involved in scrutinizing the "target" areas, would detract from skills and interest. I feel as though the fretboard is part of the major attraction, that draws newcomers to the steel guitar. Consider the pearlized markers on early Kalamazoo Gibson guitars (Sp. 6 str.). The top of the line guitars featured markers at the first fret. The largest fret markers at the first fret diminished in size, further up the neck, to compensate for the narrowing of frets. Come to think of it, pearl may be a very good choice, if implemented as additional decor, featuring stylistic configurations on the HUF. Barry, thanks for stimulating further thinking on my part, to become more absorbed in the upright fret board. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 07 October 2006 at 11:35 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 08 October 2006 at 02:28 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 7 Oct 2006 5:51 am

Although I can't claim to "sight"-read on steel guitar, not anything resembling what I can do on a standard guitar anyway, I do like to use written music as a spur or goad towards bettering my steel playing also. When the esteemed B.H. started this reiterative thread up, I drug my imitation posterboard HUF out of "storage" and hooked it up - I can now unequivocally say that it is vastly superior for music-reading purposes than that old, tired, wimpy, CHF*. There's far less distance for the eyes to travel, so you don't have to totally re-align your orbs and completely, repeatedly disconnect from the written page.

I'm going to have to root around my stuff-pile and find something suitable to permanentize this thing, with it's current fragility one little nudge off the cliff and I have, temporarily, no fretboard at all...

*(Conventional Horizontal Fretboard)

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 Oct 2006 8:21 am

David M.,

FWIW, I've settled on 45 degrees as the most desirable angle for the HUF. The term verticle is a misnomer in that it is a general term, rather than actual measurement. This allows for more reflective light from the fretboard, as well as clearances at tip of the bar. The angle of vision is also considered, by positioning the HUF in the eye comfort zone. Thanks David, for your interest and kind words.

Dale Lee · Post by **Dale Lee** » 7 Oct 2006 9:16 am

I couldn't help replying on this - its the engineer in me.

Could this be made by mounting rod along the guitar, just beyond the strings, with the rod having rings painted or engraved at the fret positions. It could be mounted on a small stand at each end of the rod, sort of like a towel bar. The rings would be visible from any angle. Or, you could hang a towel on it, like an apron on your guitar.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 7 Oct 2006 9:18 am

Bill, I would urge you to excersize caution when considering future upgrades to the HUF. Any ill-considered choice relating to size, color, or angle, might be percieved by some as meretricious ....

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 7 Oct 2006 9:19 am

For anyone who would like to qickly and inexpensively demo a completely fretless ax, just shut the windows and doors and flip off the lights *

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 7 Oct 2006 10:25 am

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 09 October 2006 at 08:34 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 Oct 2006 11:03 am

Fred S.,

Good luck with your project. It will be interesting to learn how the finished product facilitates better maneuverability of the bar hand. Luminescence has not been ruled out, however, my upright is amply visible in rooms with dim lighting. I anxiously await to hear of successes with your experiment.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 Oct 2006 2:22 am

Dale Lee,

Please let me know more about your studies in engineering. I'll wager that you may possess a score of nifty ideas, that may very well culminate into useful fruition with steel guitar related issues. Without further experimentation, I can easily visualize your example of a substitute fret board. Actually, any semblance of a fret will suffice, if it is located at the bar tip, to insure 100%
visibility in selecting the "target area." That rod option may be far less attractive, than a pearlized fluer-de-lis as a fret selection directive. There must be literally thousands of designs available to choose from, that would logically result in greater eye appeal.

B.H.

Dale Lee · Post by **Dale Lee** » 8 Oct 2006 10:30 am

Bill Hankey,

My engineering studies were in structural engineering. Knowledge of stresses and strains abounds, perhaps irrelevant to the issue at hand. Further diluting my qualifications is the fact that my steel playing skills are strictly at beginner level.

Nevertheless, your reply has provoked further ideas in my imagination. In my beginner efforts to play, I find no difficulty in locating a target location when moving the bar to a higher position. But the opacity of my hand and bar do obscure target positions when moving down the strings – especially when the target is close to my starting position (more remote targets are well in view to the left of my hand).

It seems to me that the essential feature of the HUF is the fact that it remains available for visual target acquisition at all times. Having the target at bar-nose level is a desirable extra, but not essential for functionality.

So, I now conclude that any target markings located beyond the nose of the bar and at such an elevation with respect to the strings as to allow visibility would work.

Therefore, I offer the following ideas (all induced by your fertilizing fleur-de-lis offering).

1. Small dots or lines etched, painted, engraved (or whatever) onto the body of the guitar at such a distance from the first string as to remain visible.
2. A mini-fretboard, much like a measuring tape, adhered to the guitar body, again located at a visible position. Perhaps three-eights inch wide.
3. Same as above, but retractable (like a measuring tape). Would require a hooking device to maintain in the extended position.)
4. Small bumps similar to Braille markings at the target positions. Note that those playing in low light conditions might make use of these by overhanging the tips of the left hand fingers to locate the targets by tactile sensation)
5. Pegs (either round or any other shape) installed picket-fence fashion. The tips could be at bar-nose level, lower, or higher to gain the desirable HUF nose alignment feature. These pegs could be removable for packing the guitar in its case. Tactile location is also a possibility with this system. Pegs could have any desired decorative shape or color, e.g. card spot sillouettes, fleur-de-lis, small nude figures, etc.
6. A scalloped bar mounted similarly to the HUF. The points of the scallops serve as targets, or perhaps the concavities of the scallops could be located to receive the nose of the bar and mechanically locate it (a beginner training tool perhaps) or, again, perhaps for tactile positioning.
7. Should technology progress in future to the requisite level, small golden BB’s suspended at bar-nose level by antigravity inducers.

All these offerings could be fabricated from more or less precious materials, depending on the quality and cost of the instrument.

Dale Lee · Post by **Dale Lee** » 8 Oct 2006 10:56 am

Bill Hankey,

A postscript: I found this from another thread.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/RARE-COLLECT ABLE-PEDAL-STEEL...

The position markers on this guitar are located at the extreme outside limit of the fretboard, indicating a primitive movement toward the HUF.[This message was edited by b0b on 08 October 2006 at 12:01 PM.]

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 8 Oct 2006 1:14 pm

As usual a flurry of possible alternatives to the origional idea presented. We all must suffer through the experience whenever we present a new concept for scrutiny. But after examining all the ideas presented , i believe i would opt for the origional idea. The 'old traditional purist' in me, which is not at all against functional improvement, (pulling off a lick like the intro to 'one's on the way' needs al the visual help it can get, there simply not being enough time to use the ear to check the final pitch between chords), subconsciously would just feel more at home looking at an actual fretboard, with the woodgrain and the fret lines and the chesspiece fretmarkers, over a rod or whatever else. imho the idea is to improve the instrument but not at the expense of cancelling out the beauty of its timeless appeal, as has already been suggested.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 9 Oct 2006 6:56 am

A natural response to readable input, is to show appreciation for the consideration and suggested alternatives in shaping the HUF. Dale Lee, thanks for your thoughts, which brings me to the same conclusion that I arrived at in previous replies. You've written that your expertise is mainly in stress, where collapsed bridges, tunnels, overpasses, earthquakes, etc. must surely have been part of your studies. I've worked dispensing thousands of tons of #1 steel, #2 steel, sheet metal, and cast iron. I'm aware of stove cast, and machine cast iron. The precious metals are not "strangers" to me from earlier experiences. The tensile strength is the absolute key in making determinations. All of which ties in with innovations that produce changes for the better. A steel guitar should not feature maladapted knee levers, troublesome tuning keys, or flimsy changers, that rivals the most mechanically inclined musicians. To be aware that once a proper adjustment is made, stability should not be an ongoing issue, and any make that repeatedly reverses efforts, is an inducement for change. I hope to make a few contacts to recount my concepts of the HUF in the coming months. The enjoyment realized in playing steel guitar increases with age. The HUF has increased that enjoyment many times over.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 9 Oct 2006 11:02 am

http://www.lonestarsteelguitar.com/images/600_01970023.jpg

[This message was edited by Nic du Toit on 09 October 2006 at 01:29 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 9 Oct 2006 12:35 pm

Nic Du Toit,

Is this a first in design? Please explain the materials used in what appears to be an unfinished musical instrument.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 9 Oct 2006 2:27 pm

http://www.lonestarsteelguitar.com/newstuff.html

Skeleton 8X2 pedal guitar, showing bellcranks, rods and levers. This one is E-9th 3X2. weighs about 15lbs.

This fellow Jim Flynn is apparently making steels with a frame only, no wood - the "fretboard" appears to be a series of thin, suspended rods. Here's some more: http://www.lonestarsteelguitar.com/products.html
He sells parts for do-it-yourselfers, I wonder if this is the guy who's got stuff on Ebay periodically? http://www.lonestarsteelguitar.com/specials.html
Salado, TX - surely somebody here knows him.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Oct 2006 2:39 am

Nic Du Toit,

They say that, "no news is good news." Your presentation, hopefully is not a harbinger of things to come. I like wood grains and solid wood for its permanency. If a magnet sticks to anything made of metal, be forewarned that rapid oxidation is a possibility to hasten creativity to its ruination.
I was out for a walk the other day, when I espied the deepening rust on a bridge near my home. Built in 1951, it proudly displays a plaque of copper and zink composition, and alloyed with other trace metals. In its present condition, it would require a full work force to justify the nonferrous semblance of past labors. Steel guitars merging into a ferrous change-over, seems contrary to brass, nickel, copper, and wood. Such is the embodiment of a skelital likeness, that jars the imagination, provoking a weird frame of mind. The depiction at first sighting, tends to alienate the HUF, by contrasting configurations.

Edited for misspell of metal... imagine that!!!
[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 October 2006 at 01:09 PM.]

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 10 Oct 2006 12:00 pm

Thank you for your explanation, Bill.
I merely copied and pasted a link to an idea from another website to indicate that there are some creative ideas around in terms of the fret layout.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Oct 2006 12:24 pm

Nic Du Toit,

You are quite welcome, my friend in the far distant land. It's always a pleasure to exchange views on matters that pertain to the steel guitar. I hope that you find your instrument as enjoyable to play, as I do mine. Please keep in touch for future on line exchanges.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Oct 2006 12:35 pm

David M.,

Thanks for submitting the information that sheds the necessary light on the subject matter. I take nothing for granted, and letting you know how much I appreciate your help, is important to me.

Dave Ristrim · Post by **Dave Ristrim** » 12 Oct 2006 8:00 am

Awesome, what else can we think of?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Oct 2006 1:15 pm

Dave R.

Thanks for picking up the ball! From one good idea, many others may take shape in the mind, allowing for how things develop over a period of time. When you muse and contemplate, the practicality of the HUF, keep in mind that successes encourage the thinking processes to dwell on new ideas. The steel guitar is a prime "candidate" for improvements. It all started years ago when a half round at the "nut" end of a Spanish guitar provided the same effect as the modern steel guitar. Who would argue that changes made since that time, culminated into the present day steel guitar. Quite a contrast in sound and appearance, needless to say. This brings me to thinking, must we tolerate the lingering annoyances of tuning problems, as well as visual handicaps? Early experiences dictate that when difficulty becomes a part of reaching goals, circumspection is in order, to find methods to expedite achievement.

Gil Berry · Post by **Gil Berry** » 12 Oct 2006 7:17 pm

Well, I don't know about a vertical fretboard (or 45 or whatever) but the problems I've had on occasion are when it's just too dark to see ANYTHING on the guitar. I know there have been illuminated fretboards in the past, and think I would like to have one if it didn't damage my axe. I would envision a clear plastic (lexan??) with the frets marked on the underside, and a small (led?) light source feeding the lexan to make it act much like a newer automobile dash light. Probably wouldn't be hard to build - BUT I would hate to put even the smallest hole in my guitar to feed the wires to the light source. Thoughts?