Steels As Collectibles? What about in 30 Years?

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 20 Sep 2006 8:00 pm

There's been a bit of talk here lately on the subject of pedal steel collectiblity and vintage value. Does anybody think there'll be a strong market for vintage 20th century pedal steels in 30-40 years? The pedal steel right now is largely a specialty instrument, little-known in the broader scope of musical instruments in the public eye. Even an obscure instrument such as the oboe or the bassoon has its place in an orchestra, thereby assuring that the vintage and collectible models will still have value and a market in years to come. But the pedal steel? I'm not so sure. Will people even be able to relate to it enough to have it hold value? Us players under 40 are scarce, so will there even be enough players to at least keep the instrument somewhat in the public eye?

In short, will anybody care enough about pedal steels in 2036 to keep the market value up on collectible models such as the Bigsby, early 60's Emmons, '73 LDG's, "celebrity" guitars, etc.? Or will they just become showpieces, like artifacts from the wild west?

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 20 Sep 2006 8:46 pm

I think They will have great collectability not just 30 --40- years from now, but from now on. Or more accurately, from the actual beginnings of steel guitar. As I see it, 20 years ago, you would not have been able to go to hardly any steel conventions at all. Now look at them popping up every where. There are new clubs forming up recently, and drawing good interest locally to those clubs.

Also, 20 years ago, I don't think you could go to a steel convention and see too many vendors, and steel builders. But look at it now. If you were at Scotty's, or Dallas, it was like a fair!! There were many builders displaying GOOD quality steels. A consumers biggest problem now a days, is "WHICH ONE DO I BUY??" And most of what you see displayed as new products, are so doggone good these days, the builders are really working the "bugs" out of these new generation guitars.

As far as under 40 players? I think there will always be newbies coming to the steel guitar. I love seeing Sarah Jory and Joe Wright and others taking steel music toward the rock/pop community, and in other countries. I see steel music widening into diferent areas, I just see growth everywhere.

BUT, that's just my take---I think the steel Community is growing, as the Forum membership shows. And I think the industry is growing, as I mentioned seeing so many guitar builders and vendors at the major conventions. I ain't worried. Just my opinion. I'm more worried about being there myself.

[This message was edited by James Morehead on 20 September 2006 at 09:56 PM.]

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 20 Sep 2006 9:07 pm

I play steel with a Country Gospel group and we go to Churches all over this part of the Country and do concerts and the people who come up to visit after the concert show more interest in the steel by far than anything else on the stage. I always have at least one of two people tell me that the steel is their favorite instrument or that they love the steel guitar. Even if it dies out in country music I can't see it going away from the Gospel music as long as there is someone there to play it. Folks who love Gospel music love the pedal steel guitar.
Jerry

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 21 Sep 2006 1:49 am

I've found the same results. Steel is so expressive that it fits right into religious/Gospel music. I'll spend sometimes 1/2-hour explaining the instrument and what it does at almost every performance.
PRR

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 21 Sep 2006 5:04 am

To assess the accuracy of the type of predictions you can make, it's best to go back 40 years and assess the accuracy of the predictions that were made back then. Remember "the end of poverty" and "the 20-hour work week?" Flying cars and talking houses, sure, Bill Gates can afford them.

I think you can make pretty good predictions about the trend in the price of fossil fuels; as a result of those, I would say that fertile farmland with it's own water supply looks like about the best thing you could leave your grandchildren.

Sherman Willden · Post by **Sherman Willden** » 21 Sep 2006 6:18 am

And the cities will take all the water they want from the ranchers and farmers.

Sherman

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 21 Sep 2006 7:02 am

Let's keep this on topic, please. Steel guitars, not fossil fuels and water rights!

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Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 21 Sep 2006 7:05 am

I wonder what an Emmons push/pull will be

worth in 30 years?

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 21 Sep 2006 7:10 am

Erv, a little more than I can afford and a little less than I would be willing to sell mine for.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Sep 2006 9:06 am

Let's consider pianos as an analogy. Seems like fewer people are buying pianos these days, and there are lots of old ones around. A top make, such as a Steinway, seems to always hold high value. People will pay high for the old ones and spend lots of money to rebuild them. But old run-of-the-mill and obscure brands don't fetch much unless they are real antiques over a hundred years old.

The pioneering steel models, such as the Bigsby and the few earliest Sho-Bud pedal steels will always be collectible for their historical significance. Some classics will be collectible, such as the Ricks and the Stringmasters. Among pedal steels, maybe Shobuds will be collectible for their looks, and the early years of the Emmons p/p for their tone and cache. But the run-of-the-mill pedal steel may never become an expensive collectible.

A lot of Fender and Gibson, etc. electric guitars from the '50s and '60s were run-of-the-mill in their day. They were not Steinways or Strattivariuses. They have now become collectible because there has been a huge and continueing boom among guitar players in the intervening decades. So there are now many more players than there were electric guitars made in the '50s and '60s. Dang near the whole population can bang out a few chords on a guitar. And the whole population includes a lot of filthy rich people with wads of money for collecting. Even if they made their money trading stocks, or manufacturing widgets, many of them collect guitars because they play some guitar. I just don't see that situation ever happening for steel. A few steels with historical value, and a few classics may always be collected, even if by rich collectors who can't play them. But it seems unlikely that demand for your run-of-the-mill steel guitar will ever greatly outstrip the supply.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Sep 2006 10:28 am

I have an 88 Fender 52 RI...

in 2 more years it will be 20 years old ..
is it collectable yet ?

In 12 years it will be 30 years old..
will it be a collectable then ?

In 40 years it will be older than the difference beween the original 52 and the date of the re issue...

I guess I may have to wait until they reissue the "RE-ISSUES"...

is it collectable ?

not sure..
probably not

30 year old Steel collectable ?
Some are and some are clearly NOT...

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 21 Sep 2006 10:42 am

When somebody opens up a worldwide chain of restaurants and bars with 75-foot statues of Bigsbys on their roofs, Buddy Emmons soundclips are selling Cadillacs and Speedy West's selling Budweiser, you'll know you were barking up the right tree...

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 21 Sep 2006 11:20 am

Chris--clearly you are seeking counsel about whether to buy the Joaquin Murphey Bigsby.
I'm here to tell you..... go for it!

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 21 Sep 2006 11:36 am

Jon, my Guyatone single 6 would smoke that thing. Bigsby........isn't that originally a Korean make?

Seriously, though, I wouldn't invest in any steel guitar as a collector's item. The Baldwin 'Bud that I have is apparently collectible due to its rare non-crossover undercarriage, but I'd be hard-pressed to find somebody willing to cough up any serious money for it. And I can't see that situation changing in the years to come. thankfully it sounds and plays like a dream and I can enjoy it and use it. I wouldn't keep it if it was just a non-functioning showpiece.

I don't think in this case you need to be an expert in steel guitars to know that their popularity is limited to a select few. Like this forum, it's really important to all of us that participate, but obscure and largely unknown to most that do not play steel guitar.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 21 Sep 2006 11:54 am

Aside from the most interesting and historically important vintage steels, I don't think there will be much interest in older steels in 30 years.

First, I expect the vintage mechanisms will probably be quite crude, as compared to modern steels - if there is, in fact, a modern steel guitar industry at that time. The good vintage guitars represent, frankly, the pinnacle-of-the-art in guitar building for an awful lot of people. From a tonal and playability point of view, there isn't much new under the sun in the guitar world. That is clearly not the case with, at least, pedal steel. I also think that playing puts more irreversible playing wear on the mechanism of a pedal steel than on a regular guitar. What wears on a guitar? Frets, and maybe the nut, mostly. Properly taken care of, the rest of a guitar is designed to last essentially indefinitely. If played regularly over a period of years, it seems that steels need significantly more refurbishing than guitars. Collectors tend to like all-original and unrefurbished examples.

Second, as already stated, there is also a real issue with the number of players and afficionados of steel guitar. It's nothing like for guitar, where there are literally millions of people who either play or are strongly culturally influenced by it. This seems, to me, to have obvious demand implications.

Third, to a certain extent, the idea of steels as collectibles implies thinking about them as an investment. One does not consider investments in a vacuum, but compares and contrasts competing investments. IMO, it is not irrelevant to say that putting ones money into other things besides collectibles would be better, as an investment. So I don't think David Mason's point is really so off-topic. How the external world impinges on the world of collectibles is extremely relevant, IMO. Various things attract the primary attention of a culture. For the last 20 years or so, Western culture has been fixated on luxury and entertainment. There have been, up until recently, relatively inexpensive oil, natural resources, and credit to fuel this type of interest. If this resource glut continues, I think the market for collectibles will continue to be strong. If it goes the other way, I think that there will be significant retrenchment as people focus on more bread-and-butter issues.

All in my opinion, of course.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 21 Sep 2006 12:00 pm

I agree with Chris. Unload all of those old push/pulls and get what you can for them, before you get stuck with them. You too, Erv.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 21 Sep 2006 12:06 pm

I've bought, sold, and collected vintage steels for years now... and don't think I don't drool every night over Joaquin's Bigsby! I mean, I have an autographed photo of The Man and That Guitar hanging over my desk!! I've got hours and hours and hours of The Man playing That Guitar!!

But I think the only way to own a vintage steel is to get in it at the right price and hang on, but by all means play it, and enjoy it. I play my Bigsby and all my Emmonses professionally. I get that return on my *investment* as well any appreciation in value it may or may not accrue. Otherwise, I think investing in steels can be extremely risky at the higher altitudes price-wise.

The top-end vintage game is, in a way, like the "Greater Fool Theory." That is, there's got to be someone somewhere willing to pay more for this horn than I did. The trick is FINDING that person. Les Paul Standards from 1958-9 are in the asking range of 350K. Askin' ain't gettin', true, but I know of one that did sell for 275K.

In a world as small as the steel world is, 75K for Joaquin's guitar, or over 10K for a less-famous Bigsby or a 64 Emmons could be problematic simply because there's a lot fewer potential buyers. Ergo, less money floating around for this type of activity.

Like Michael Johnstone pointed out on a different thread; if you've won an auction, you were willing to pay more than anyone else was. Think about it, darlin'.

EDIT: Dave Mudgett was posting as I was writing my tome. I agree with his assessment fully.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 21 September 2006 at 01:08 PM.]

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 21 Sep 2006 3:30 pm

Herb, have we found, in Joaquin's guitar, a steel you CAN'T afford? Just askin' ....

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 21 Sep 2006 4:20 pm

A small departure from the question of the viability of steel guitars as investment instruments (minor pun intended)---consistent with Herb's plea/demand that the instrument ion question must be PLAYED.....YES. YOU BET! And this presents a problem that he alludes to---price it in the sphere of high value collectibles and you have the quandary---how do you preserve its investment value while using it as it was intended by its creator. I deeply resent the collector who buys a horn for the purpose of putting it in a vault or showcase (not to be confused with the collector who loves, honors and cherishes great instruments and loves to see them, play them, even if only for his own pleasure (non professional,eg,).
However there's always a grey area---I bought a beautiful guitar (at a fairly premium price) a few years ago that was almost under-the-bed pristine. And the instant I received it I realized that any and every scratch and wear mark (I play my axes kind of hard so there was no way I could be confident of maintaining its condition) would devalue this guitar. A conundrum. I simply determined that this guitar couldn't come to the bars with me. And is best off not coming out of the case too often. I keep wanting to sell it but indeed, the value is going up so I'm hanging on until I need the cash. But I vowed then & there that it was the last time I would be seduced by a guitar that was too fine to use a tool of my....whatever...art, craft, trade......

Robert Leaman · Post by **Robert Leaman** » 21 Sep 2006 4:43 pm

You're worried about 2036 ??????????

I was born in 1931 and surely will be dead before 2036. After I move to the "Great Lagoon" (Where all lounge lizards go.), it is as Gable said to Scarlet, "I really don't give a damn."

Some lucky devil will get my Sierra Session D10 and I hope whoever gets it will be as pleased with it as I am.

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 22 Sep 2006 3:36 am

I recently tried to acquire an early model Emmons. My motivation is strictly my fascination with this particular model; I wanted to get it restored with my pedal setup to play myself. As to the future value of such a guitar who knows? I am getting "long in the tooth" and it would be my last "hurrah" in this life, as my wife was approving (maybe she subdued the desire react in a very negative way) this. Anyway I ended up being out the cost of the Moneygram and losing out but such is life. I suppose a lot of us have our own fascination with certain brand (models) and that's the beauty of being in this unique, free country and enjoying freedom and it's benefits. And yes, I would still like to have an early model Emmons, but that's just me. Thanks for listening guys.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 22 Sep 2006 5:17 am

Our darling internet, and Ebay, have fueled an explosion in the field of collectables, with countless little universes subject to drastically inflationary pressures: Les Paul collectors, vintage Barbie doll collectors, vintage fountain pen collectors, there's probably thousands of fields and subsets. Would such a question (of investing in steel guitars) even have come up in 1975, or 1985, or even 1995?

There's a kind of necrophiliac, watching-a-car-race, waiting-for-the-crash quality to all of this I think. If you own anything of this sort at all, don't you check in on your "markets" frequently, wondering if it's time to dump out NOW? Of course you do.

I recently read that the comic book and baseball card markets are collapsing at warp speed these days; there are people with closets full of Beanie Babies, you know - looks like Junior won't be going to college after all.... I'm not allowed to talk about anything except steel guitars

, so if you're convinced that in forty years we'll still be printing up free paper money and everyone will still be agreeing that it's worth whatever we want to pretend it's worth, stocking up on old beater steels is a brilliant investment strategy! Knock yourself out!

Sure, I wish I'd bought up old beater Fenders in the 70s, or 80s, or 90s... I wish I'd bought a few cases of $5 Pelikan fountain pens so I could sell them for $35 on Ebay too. Say, how many Barbie Dolls do you want for that rattly old Sho-Bud, anyway?

Neil Harms · Post by **Neil Harms** » 22 Sep 2006 5:43 am

I have really mixed feeling about this topic. I love vintage instruments of every kind. I would dearly love to have a huge collection of them to USE. It becomes problematic for me when I think of how much I'd love to be able to play a Bigsby, Emmons Push-Pull, or 52 Tele just for the experience and realize that many if not most of these items are being carefully purchased and then tucked away as an investment many times by folks who don't even play. My decision has thus been to only buy instruments that I will use regularly and let the rest have homes where other (hopefully) musicians will enjoy them. So to answer the post... Will pedal steels be great investments? If they make you and your family smile with the music they create, you bet! N.
p.s. I'm 38.

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76 Sho-Bud LDG, 52 Fender Custom Triple, Fender Vibrasonic "Custom", (plus all that other stuff....)

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 22 Sep 2006 6:11 am

Barry
If, in 1966, I'd kept all the baseball cards I'd been seriously collecting since 1957 instead of tossing them out, I could buy Joaquin's guitar AND a house to put it in!

Or the 57 Strat I traded to Sol Betnun Music, plus $100 (!), for a Twin Reverb. In 1968, so it's okay.

In my world, 75K is down payment on a piece of real estate, or some other more widely accepted investment vehicle, not a musical instrument.

No, though I love playing old guitars, I was fortunate enough to acquire all of them years ago when prices were what I considered very reasonable and affordable.

Prices are still reasonable and affordable on most steel guitars, when you consider intrinsic value or replacement costs. What does a very clean, late 50's Stringmaster D-8 cost? I'd say $1500-1800? What would a new D-8 Remington cost? How about a D-8 MSA Superslide? I've seen Sierra S-8s selling for around $900-1000. That's close to or more than a Fender Deluxe goes for, currently.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 22 Sep 2006 7:03 am

I like to buy things that I like. And I have a fascination for guitars and associated gear.

I think we are a product of our upbringing. My dad worked road construction in New Mexico when I was growing up and we lived in a 21' trailer house, not a mobile home, A TRAILER HOUSE! When it got time to move to a new road job, there was only so much room in that trailer. Needless to say, most all my stuff got left behind. I think this really made an impression on me. Now I like my STUFF! I regret ever selling anything.

Hopefully, I will not have to sell anything again. I know you can't take it with you. As George Strait said in one of his songs: "You don't see luggage racks on hearses". However, I have a trust set up for my children and grandchildren and my "stuff" will be going to them.

Just so they don't have a garage sale and set everything out on the curb!