E9/B6 on an S10

[John Hyland]

Sorry if this has been discussed to death but any thoughts on E9/B6 copendent on a 10 string. Or any other options.

[Benjamin Davidson]

It gets discussed from time to time.

I run a 10 string version of E9th/B6th. Currently a 9p9k configuration. I have a couple of threads here on the forum discussing how I got there.

Really depends on how many pedals and knees you have, and if you already have thw guitar in question?

Another Option is one of b0bs D6th layouts, or look at the recent thread in Steel Players on Johnny Cox's D13th (which is a 12string as written).

[John Hyland]

Thank Benjamin
Since Im building a guitar so theoretically I can add any number of pedals - knees. but probably 4 knees sounds enough for me

Im thinking of an e9th setup with the 9 string as a B and 10 as a G# and I like the idea of a simplified B6 (other other) tuning.
Im sure I can come up with some way make non pedal fixed changes to suit the tuning if needed

[Dave Hopping]

John, I've been thinking about that very setup, with RKR raising B to D,P1 raising that B to C#, and P2 raising that G# to A.

If I could find someone in the Denver area to make those changes I'd very probably pull the trigger.

Any suggestions from the readership?

[John Hyland]

John, I've been thinking about that very setup, with RKR raising B to D,P1 raising that B to C#, and P2 raising that G# to A.

If I could find someone in the Denver area to make those changes I'd very probably pull the trigger.

Any suggestions from the readership?

This is an interesting thread.
viewtopic.php?t=374108

[J D Sauser]

Removing the low "D"-string on an E9th/B6th get's you the low G# with the "B"-pedal attached to it, which is nice for some added growl and bigger "A7th" (with A&B down), but you still miss he bottom E (the 9th "F"-string on C6th) you NEED to play the B6th end effectively. Since that note dow NOT get lowered with your E-to-Eb lever, it stays as the root as the EM7 (with E-to-Eb engaged) or E7th with the "6th"-pedal... and so much more. I would NOT want to be without that root, it is essential to the C6th or B6th setup.
So, you could canbialize the top strings. Either the top F# of the top G#. If you are centered on mostly the 6th-tuning playing, that MAY be a livable compromise... if you are just looking to add some stuff to E9th... it wouldn't and then I would suggest still dropping the D string to create room for the low G# and free up the At6h and recreate that D with a lever, and concentrate to add to the A6th side.
Keep in mind, the B-Bb-lever as well as your E-to-Eb-lever will act like C6th pedals "5" & "6"! You could still have the "7th"-pedal with the E-to-Eb lever engaged for the M7th sound.

... J-D.

[Andrew Frost]

Having the low F on C6 obviously opens up a whole new angle on the tuning, the equivalent being a low E on B6, as JD described.

But, if you're familiar with the ACEGACEG classic non pedal tuning, then playing E9/B6 with G# & B on the bottom lines up pretty nicely when Es are lowered.

One can potentially put a low E on 10, instead of G#, creating a power chord scenario on 9 & 10. You can raise it to F# on B or C pedal. I've found that low E to be cool for some things but slightly less useful than the closer harmonies available w/ the G# to A. I haven't had the E to C# drop on the F lever with that low E though. Perhaps with that change it might be worth keeping.

11 strings would be ideal, if one wanted to maintain the 'uni light' approach without going full universal.

[John Hyland]

Thanks fellas. How many pedal levers are you guys using.?
Andrew. I do like the idea of 11 strings as I have used the E on 10 before but it does still need a G# nearby. That might have to be prototype 2 .

[Benjamin Davidson]

John, I have 9 pedals and 9 knees, my center cluster could be described a double wide Crawford. 2 LKL, LKV, CKV, 2 CKR, then a RKL and 2 RKRs.

I use the LKL2 to raise low B back to D, and G# upto B.

I have the string 10 G# lower all the way down to E on my CKR2. Allowing me to have that note available.

Its all a compromise running such a tuning on only 10 strings, but I've been having a blast as I sort out how the next guitar will be set up.

[Ian Worley]

I've taken a slightly different approach with just 4 pedals and 4 knees. Emphasis on streamlining the uni setup to as few pedals and levers as possible. I do have a vertical on two guitars but it's not a primary lever for me (B >A# is the most useful change there to me). I've used this setup for quite a while now and I am very content with it. Like any copedent it doesn't do everything perfectly, but it does a lot, and what it does do it does very well without all the histrionics and acrobatics required to play a setup with 7 or 8 pedals and multiple extra levers. One pedal to the left and one to the right of A-B, four knees, that's all. It provides all the most typical changes for E9, and most all of the basic changes for the top 8 strings of C6, and multiple ways to get various changes depending on the context.


I don't expect many will actually bother read all of this, but I thought John might be interested in the details so here goes:

The second and third pedals are standard E9 A&B. Open tuning is like a standard uni setup with no D string on 9, so B pedal also raises string 10 G# >A. E raises/lowers are standard Emmons on the left knee, except LKR also lowers string 2 D# >C#.

Pedal 0 raises strings 6 & 10 G# >A#. This pedal has a lot of different uses, but it is most useful when combined with the A pedal. Pedals A + 0 form an F#7 in open position (II7). When combined with the RKL lever that raises string 4 to F# it becomes a "reverse Franklin pedal" on strings 10-9-7-6-5-4. In open position, engaging p0 + A + RKL is F#7, releasing 0 + A pedals lowers the Bs and G#s on strings 5-6-9-10, the same as a Franklin pedal, but the changes can be manipulated independently. Combined with A+F, pedal 0 provides a nice motion raising the 5th tone to the 6th for a C#6 or A#m7. It’s the same motion in the voicing as squeezing the A pedal in open position to go from E9 to E6(+9) or C#m. With string 7 as root it's a big F#maj7 across strings 1,3-10 (+13 if you add string 2).

RKL raises string 4 E >F#, so combined with A-B pedals it becomes the B-C pedal combo. This lever is extremely useful for all sorts of things. It's essentially an A pedal for pedals-down position. It provides a toggle-able sus4 when combined with A+F. The independent F# provides some nice opportunities for 6 string style rock/blues minor pentatonic licks too, combined with A+B, two frets back from open, the lever bending string 4 up to the root, B pedal bending up to the 5th. RKL also raises strings 1 and 2, which places the next two diatonic notes on 1 & 2 with A-B pedals down, it’s a big, lush F#m9 or Amaj7+13 across all 10 strings . This provides lots of options for voice motion between chord changes, minor chord scalar runs, etc. There is also an incidental feel half-stop on string 1 at G before the pulls on strings 2 & 4 engage.

RKR has the typical E9 string 2 D# >D lower, and also lowers string 8 E >D. In the context of a universal tuning, this make more musical sense to me than raising string 9 B >D as is most common. There are relatively few combinations where both of the normal strings 7 & 8 are used in combination with the normal string 9 D all at once. Lowering string 8 to D and using that note as root serves the same purpose without having to skip a string (I can get an F on string 7 with p3). In most cases you get can get all the same stuff as you would with a conventional D string -- RKR combined with the B pedal gives a D6 (IV6 when transitioning from pedals-down A6), add the A pedal for Dmaj7, half-pedal for D7, add p3 for Dm, release B for half dim, release all pedals for the vanilla E7. Combined with the A pedal gives the familiar E13 chord on strings 8-6-5 (very useful for bluesy tri-tone subs on VI-II-V-I turn-arounds, or if your band happens to play Kid Charlemagne).

With Es lowered, no pedals, open position is of course typical B6, or G#m7 or EMaj7. With Es lowered p3 functions like p5 on C6, lowering the 5th of the B6 chord on string 7 a half step. This forms a half diminished triad on strings 7-6-5 and a really nice C#9 across strings 2-10.

With Es lowered, RKR is p6 on C6, lowering string 8 a whole step, E>D in addition to the standard E9 string 2 D# >D lower. This gives you the classic E7+9 IV chord on C6. Combined with the F# lower on p3 gives an E7b9, or a full diminished across 10-9-8-7-6-5, same as the p5+p6 combination on C6.

P0 raises strings 6 & 10 G# to A#, which provides the same function as p4 on C6 by itself, or combined with the A pedal it provides the same changes as standard p7 on C6. The intervallic changes between the B6 and Bmaj9/F#6/D#m7. Because the notes can be toggled independently provides many other melodic and chordal possibilities beyond what the standard C6 pedal 7 does. Using string 7 as root (F#6), the pedal 0 functions the same as the A pedal in normal E9 pedals down position, it toggles between the 9th and 3rd for the classic "corn squeeze" three frets above the typical A+B.

[Andrew Frost]

Great set up and summary Ian. I've thought a lot about the same pedal zero configuration you have, and have figured that it would indeed be a great way to do all the things you described. But why not raise 6 to A# (as you have) and drop 10 to F#? This way you'd still have the pedal 7 sound, it would be a low root on the F#dom chord ( w/ A pedal ) and used by itself would create a low 5th under a Bmaj7/13 chord. Is there an advantage to setting it up with both G#s raising a whole tone akin to C6 pedal 4?

[Ian Worley]

On a push-pull, adding a lower on a string that also has a raise requires slack. The longer the lower, the more slack is required on the raise, which affects pedal feel and timing. The B pedal raise also supersedes the lower when engaged. I had this change at one time, low G# >F#. The low F# and the downward motion of the change are both definitely useful in some situations. I also tried tuning string 10 to E and raising it to F#, which I found more useful than the lower overall, particularly if you need or want that low root-5th power chord sound. Advantages are subjective and relative though. There is always something you can do differently, and there is always a resulting trade-off. Sometimes the trade-off is just personal and ergonomic. I guess I'm a simpleton, I prefer the simplicity and consistency between 10-9-8 to 6-5-4. I've done a lot of experimenting to end up with something that suits my playing and works well for me, I would encourage you to do the same. You won't know how useful (or not) something really is to your own playing style until you've lived with it for a while.

[John Hyland]

Ian that’s a great summary and more of a thesis. Some goes over my head on a casual read as I would need the instrument there to see the effects.

A couple of things.
Your spare LKV could have the B>Bb and with a split tuning gets a nice chromatic run down from C# to the Bb.
The other point is the RKL is working very hard with three long raises on the thinnest strings. How does that work for you?

[Ian Worley]

The B >A# is the most common change I would put on a guitar with a vertical but my main guitars are PPs so no splits, I have to half-pedal the C note. It's still a useful change on a PP, it's useful for B6 stuff too but it's awkward to use in that context with the E lowers on the same knee.

RKL is my favorite lever, it's not too long or too stiff if that's what you mean. I have it on all my guitars, it is my most used/most useful change after A-B and the E raises/lowers. I have some longer bell cranks on my PPs for those changes to shorten the throw a little but it works fine. I am very used to the way it works and feels, but moreover I'm very used to what it does. I use it a lot.

[John Hyland]

Thanks Ian yes I did mean the lever might get very stiff.

[John Hyland]

What gauge you fellas would you use on the Low G#?

[Ian Worley]

I use a .042, and a .036 on ninth string B

[Andrew Frost]

John, I use a 44w for G# and a 36w for B on string 9.
I think Ian's 42w is a good idea if you plan to raise it a whole tone though.
How's the build coming along?

[John Hyland]

John, I use a 44w for G# and a 36w for B on string 9.
I think Ian's 42w is a good idea if you plan to raise it a whole tone though.
How's the build coming along?

Thanks Ian
The build is coming on well. I have just got it playing and am pleased with the sound. It quite a novel design and will post detail after it has the bugs flattened.

[Chris Templeton]

I would ask myself what I am trying to achieve with this tuning? A way to play steel in any musical situation? Jazz standards? at home? maybe with a BIAB, a jazz trio, etc.
When I played with Dan Hicks & His Acoustic Warriors, I played a 6 string dobro tuned,CEGACE
Lap steel on Skynyrd/ZZ Top type stuff tuning EBEG#BE and sometimes tune the G# to A
Mostly C6th playing with Hawaiian groups, with an occasional foray into B11th and other tunings.
Enjoy your steel, whatever copedent you choose

[John Hyland]

I would ask myself what I am trying to achieve with this tuning? A way to play steel in any musical situation? Jazz standards? at home? maybe with a BIAB, a jazz trio, etc.
When I played with Dan Hicks & His Acoustic Warriors, I played a 6 string dobro tuned,CEGACE
Lap steel on Skynyrd/ZZ Top type stuff tuning EBEG#BE and sometimes tune the G# to A
Mostly C6th playing with Hawaiian groups, with an occasional foray into B11th and other tunings.
Enjoy your steel, whatever copedent you choose

Sooner or later you need to choose a copendent so Im just looking for the most versatile one there is as there is a world outside of country licks. Maybe not pure jazz but blues, minors, alt country, pure and other versions of county. Dan Hicks is a reference point.

[Chris Templeton]

For me, it's a lot about what a singer/artist/song needs and how I can contribute to what they do.

[Larry Allen]

This isn’t a E9/B6 but it is more of an extended E9..lots of possibilities on a S10.

[Chris Templeton]

Nice setup, Larry.
I miss poke at Pono Market.

[Larry Allen]

Aloha Chris..we all do! Also most of the places except Safeway and Big Save are still closed or out of business..the neighbors bring us Ahi so we make our own now….my setup is quite versatile..one of our bands plays Jazz, Raggee and old Rock..the other plays Hawaiian and standards….we used to get lots of weddings (play the same 6 songs, take the $$ and Run!! ). That’s still closed down for the tourists.. Larry