''Question About The Peterson Tuner''

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 27 Sep 2006 2:15 am

b0b asked about two different F# settings. You can't have two different, only one setting for each note. I had to program (in a Strobe O Flip) one memory for most E9th, one memory for most C6th and then a third memory for extras, such as the E9th 4th string pull to F# which I tune differently than the open F#'s.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Sep 2006 5:10 am

Thanks Jim and of course my friend Mr D.

There's indeed some confusion, but I don't believe it's mine.

EJL

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 27 Sep 2006 6:12 am

In one of the newsletters I got from Jeffran College in the early eighties, was Jeffs tuning chart with a disclaimer that there was nothing scientific about it. It was merely what sounded good to him and it was there to use or not use. As a new player it helped me immensely.

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Howard

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 27 Sep 2006 6:41 am

With the Peterson, I actually spend very little time tuning now, whereas before I had to drag the steel to a quiet room (non-existent near a barroom) and tune the beats out, or stare at the meter on a small tuner mid-show, trying to guess what was going on if something sounded screwy. (Headphones are also useless in a loud room.) In the living room and the studio, I always tune by ear with the beats, after getting a reliable E. They're ideal tuning enviornments. But live? No one can contest the efficiency of the Peterson for quickness and accuracy. If this tuner was available in the 60s-70's, it would have been utilized. I'm a vintage and old school player all the way, but I don't get the argument in fighting this particular technological offering. It's simply easier, quicker and more accurate. [This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 27 September 2006 at 07:43 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Sep 2006 7:33 am

I agree with Chris. I think everyone should tune carefully by ear at home, and check to see what your preferred tuning looks like on a meter. It's an education in itself. You can then write out your own chart, or program it into a meter, to use when you can't hear. I would not want to be dependent only on my ears (sometimes you can't hear) or a meter (the batteries could go out, or you could misplace it).

Also, offsets from straight up are not just for ear tuners and JI. Even if I wanted everything straight up ET, if I had cabinet drop greater than 4 cents, I would want to split that between the open E chord and the pedaled A chord. I would not want either of those positions to be off 5 cents or more at the nut. And on my uni, the low strings go sharp because of bar pressure, so at the nut I tune them flat.

And in spite of all the stuff I write here about tuning, I don't obsess over it on gigs. Like most people, I tune the @%&* thing up the quickest way possible and play. And like most people I frequently have to play without everything tuned perfect, because you can't ask the world to stop while you tune 10 or 20 strings and dozens of stops. I just jump in these discussions because I find tuning a pedal steel an interesting problem, and it can be very confusing for novices.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 27 September 2006 at 08:37 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Sep 2006 7:42 am

I did misunderstand. Lloyd sent the following email: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One morning sometime in the early 1980s Jeff called and asked if I could come out to his place for lunch and also bring my steel (it was the Sho-Bud). He said he had something important to discuss with me. He was a friend and I was curious and hungry enough to go.

Upon arrival he asked me to set my steel up, which I did. Now keep in mind he hadn't told me anything about what he had in mind and I was looking around for the food since I was bit hungry. After first giving me a 440 for reference Jeff then asked me to tune my steel until I was satisfied it was as close to what I considered "in tune" as I could get (actually I tune my top E to between 441 & 442, just slightly sharp to the 440. The rest is done strictly by ear and "feel").
After a minute or two I said, "Okay, it's in tune." He said, "Are you sure?''
I nodded my head. Then he said, "Give me a few minutes to check something." He told me he had computed what he considered the ideal tuning chart for E9th that could help standardize and simplify tuning but first wanted to hear my "ear" tuning for reference.

After a few minutes of dialing in each of my notes as to pitch and comparing them to his already computed pitch for each string, he was elated to find they were almost identical to mine which he thought sounded about as "in tune" as could be done by ear. He made a very few minimal corrections to his computational chart and as far as I know that became the Jeff Newman way to tune a pedal steel E9th. He figured most guys would need a helping hand since this thing is so difficult to tune, and his "new" chart would provide that very thing.

As for me, I was impressed that Jeff had arrived at a mechanical and mathematical means of tuning which mirrored very closely what I always relied on my brain to define. Of course playing in tune involves much more than simply tuning each string to the correspondingly correct pitch, but that's another equation entirely.

Besides, I was getting pretty damn hungry when about that time Fran appeared with a tray of food ample enough to tame us savage beasts.

Lloyd Green <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
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Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 27 Sep 2006 8:00 am

playing in tune involves much more than simply tuning

Indeed!

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 27 Sep 2006 8:14 am

Hey guys, Buddy has a CD out about harmonic tuning. The other day i put this CD on and checked most of my open strings to it, My tuning at that time was the Newman temper tuning and it seemed like they was close to exact. Also i'v heard that Buddy in the past few years has tuned straight up 440. I'm wondering if this is true how he can tune by harmonics for a while and then play tuned to 440 all the way. BUTT i'v only heard he has done this, Don't know for sure. I have had several guys tell me this. Hopefully he will tell us what he thinks.
Thanks in advance Buddy.
Gary Steele. [This message was edited by Gary Steele on 27 September 2006 at 09:17 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 27 Sep 2006 8:58 am

Chris, I agree with you. I play loud environments most of the time. I tried the Peterson Strobe Flip up at Al Brisco's and was impressed. Its extremely accurate and stable. I use a Boss Tuner now but I'm considering buying the Peterson. The ability to silent tune on stage is a must for me. Playing in outdoor environments especialy. I think tuning by ear and taking the readings off the meter is where its at. Now we can start talking about compensators.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Sep 2006 9:43 am

Uh-Oh. Eric, now which hero are you going to follow, Buddy or Lloyd?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Sep 2006 9:57 am

. . . or a better question
Which of them actually plays out of tune?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 27 Sep 2006 10:08 am

Even with zero cabinet drop, with JI there is a good reason to tune the Es sharp in my opinion.

If you were to tune this mythical steel with zero cabinet drop so the E and B were at A440, and the G#s were 14 cents flat of A440, it will sound flat at the nut (as mentioned) but in addition to this you will end up playing sharp of every fret for pedals up also. I find it easier to be able to "aim" for hitting right over each fret.

To my ear for JI if plaing an E-G# interval it sounds in tune against the band if the E is sharp and the G# is flat by about the same amount of cents, and I like that point to be right over the fret.

With any amount of drop, you will have to go a bit sharp for pedals down, but this will happen automatically with a tiny bar movement (if you tune JI you are doing this, watch your left hand closely).

So, if you do the inverse and tune so that pedals down with cabinet drop is right at the fret, then you're flat at the nut AND have to play sharp at every fret for pedals up.

Also, if you tune JI you are probably playing closer to ET when playing single note runs via slight bar adjustments, I have checked myself and I know for a fact I do this, but here again its nice to have the fret marker be the same error in both the sharp and flat direction for notes relative to ET.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Sep 2006 10:26 am

I tune out of tune and play out of tune. If anyone wants to know how I do it, email me!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
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Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Sep 2006 11:30 am

I have a friend who keeps his guitars SPOTLESS -- constantly shining and polishing.

I went to see him at a gig years ago. He brought in his 20 year old push-pull that looked like it just came off the showroom floor. He set it up, polishing each item -- legs, pedal bar, neck, endplates -- as he assembled the guitar. Then he wiped off the strings and continued polishing.

Some guy came up to him out of the crowd and asked

"You PLAY that thing or just POLISH it?"

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Sometimes I think we spend more time doing everything OTHER THAN PLAYING than we do with our fingers on the strings.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Sep 2006 11:38 am

They have Prozac for that.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 27 Sep 2006 11:51 am

Nowwwwwww Jim!
(by the way, your CD is in the mail)

Kyle Everson · Post by **Kyle Everson** » 27 Sep 2006 12:26 pm

I just bought a VS-II and have yet to use it. Are the presets built into it the same as Jeff Newman's chart? Or do I need to program another set of presets?

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Kyle Everson
Sho-Bud Pro-II
Fender Twin Reverb
Goodrich 120

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 27 Sep 2006 12:42 pm

I think its already been said that one tuner doesn't fit all ! You guys have given us all food to chew on and see how we like it . As i said already and some others also i tuned my ''E''s to 440 or 440+ and the rest with my ear and then tried my tuner to see what i had and made a chart from that . I do agree in a room where you have other players trying to show everyone just how many licks they can play it's real hard to try to get a good ''ear '' tuning hence the electronic tuner ! Thanks again . Gary .

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Sep 2006 1:12 pm

Interesting idea, Scott. b0b once brought up the idea that the way a JI tuned steel works with ET tuned guitars and keyboards is that the JI chord is "centered" around ET, just as you described. You have described a way to center the open E chord at the nut. For a variety of expressed reasons, many people seem to tune their open Es a little sharp. Maybe they have all found this works better than Es straight up, but have different explanations of why. Maybe there are multiple reasons that all converge on the same solution.

Maybe someone could ask Lloyd why he tunes his open Es between 441 and 442.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 27 Sep 2006 2:08 pm

Scott, just for clarity, are you saying that the Emmons LeGrande III is a mythical guitar and that it in fact does have cabinet drop? I played one day before yesterday and it registered zero cabinet drop on both the E's and the sixth string. Also, I'd like to know how I could possibly be flat tuned at the nut if I tune pedals down at the nut to E's 440 on a guitar with no cabinet drop. My guitarist tunes E 440. It would seem to me that my pedals down A is in tune with his guitar. Dave, could you answer that also?[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 27 September 2006 at 03:08 PM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 27 Sep 2006 2:29 pm

FWIW, I think the LeGrande III's have the cabinet drop compensators built in.
I think you would have to check for cabinet "raise" on that model, to see the body/changer/whatever deflection.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 27 Sep 2006 2:42 pm

Kyle, the Newman stettings, on the VS-II has the E's on the E9th referenced to plus 10 cents. Same with the C's on the C6th neck.

But, you have two memories to program whatever you want.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Sep 2006 6:01 pm

Kevin, as I understand Scott's comments, he is talking about a guitar with no cabinet drop, but tuned JI. For the open E chord, if the root Es are 0 cents (referenced to 440), then the G# 3rds on strings 3 and 6 should be -14 cents (436.5). Those 3rds will sound good when the steel is played solo (the guitar is in tune with itself), but will sound flat when played with guitars or keyboards that have straight up ET 3rds (you could also say the ET instrument 3rds sound sharp). To center the JI chord you would split the difference and tune the Es +7 cents (441.75), and the G#s -7 cents (438.25). This really only applies to open chords at the nut. When an experienced player uses the bar, he automatically centers the chord with his ears. Vibrato also helps obscure these differences. I'm not sure the differences we are talking about can be seen well with the eyes in relation to the visible fret marks.

Cabinet drop is not a simple thing. You get more drop with two pedals activated than one pedal. And the length of the pull and the gauge of the string pulled has an effect, as well as the number of strings raised by a pedal or combination of pedals. You can also get cabinet rise when a lower is activated. So you can't really account for all the possibilities simply by how you tune the strings. But on E9 the A/B pedal combination is used so extensively that it is worth adjusting for if there is more than 4 cents cabinet drop of the Es with the A and B pedals activated.

When I first got a 12-string uni, there were no raises on the lower strings on the A and B pedals. There was only 2 or 3 cents cabinet drop (about 0.5 Hz), so it was not worth worrying about. When I added pulls to have the lower strings raised the same as the strings an octave above, I had three pulls on each of the A and B pedals, and the cabinet drop increased to 8 cents (2 Hz). So I tune the E chord 4 cents sharp (441), and let the A chord drop to 4 cents flat (439). Thinking about Scott's comments, maybe I should go another Hz sharp.

Splitting the difference like that, I mostly don't hear a problem playing with ET guitars and keyboards. But if there ever is a problem, it is always me being a little flat, and having to play slightly above the frets. Usually it is because guitar players seem to inch their tuning up, they never adjust the tuning problems they hear by tuning flatter. Or maybe it's just my strings warming up, even though I try to warm them up before I tune. For whatever reason, being a little sharp across the board is better than being a little flat. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 27 September 2006 at 07:20 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Sep 2006 6:58 pm

Well Mr Doggett, that's a fair question.

Neither. I just tune the way I have most of my life..

As far as doing what other players do, I don't work with "other players", and I tend to try more to match what the ones I do play with do. They don't play pedal steel guitars. Usually guitars, basses and piani.

Sometimes they play horribly, and I can usually match them so as not to appear out of place.

Sometimes they don't, and I usually match that too.

Simplicity.

That's the most important thing.

(Especially for those just starting out.)

That and getting paid.

I suppose so a guy can save up for a $200+ Tuner to tune by ear with.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 27 September 2006 at 10:17 PM.]

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 27 Sep 2006 7:00 pm

At the risk of derailing what has become a very complex discussion..........

Going back to the original question, Gary is it possible that you didn't have the Petersen set to the correct temperment when you tuned the neck? A couple of times I have tuned the E9th neck when my Petersen was mistakenly set to the C6 offsets. I can assure you that my guitar was not in tune when I plugged into the amp!!!

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Bill Cunningham