In The Ballpark

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Sep 2006 11:47 am

Here's my basic "tuner notches" temperament:
[tab] "A" "B" "C" "D" "E" "F" "G" "X"
F# 0 G# -5
D# -5 D +5 E +5
G# -5 A 0
E +5 F# -5 D# -5 F -10
B +5 C# -5 C# -5 A# -10
G# -5 A 0
F# +5 (F# -5) G +10
E +5 D# -5 F -10
D +5 C# -5
B +5 C# -5 [/tab]

This gets you in the ballpark. It sounds better than equal temperament. It might be good enough for you, or maybe not.

If you're using a tuner with Hz instead of cents, figure:
438 = -10
439 = -5
440 = 0
441 = +5
442 = +10

It's out of tune, but most people will think it sounds in tune. I've been using this approach for many years with good results.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 27 Sep 2006 6:16 pm

Thanks b0b - I'll try that and see what happens.

One question I've never goten an answer from anybody on...well, at least one that was consistent. You have knee levers (I assume) in D, E, F, G, X sequence that on my GFI are E, D, F, G (no X). There seem to be other variations as well. So when someone talks about the "E lever" (or whatever) - how do you know what they mean? Tab files that get posted are particularly hard to decipher, unless you know THAT player's naming system.

What act of Congress would it take to get the pedal steel community to agree on ONE naming system? It sure would make everyone's life easier.

(PS - what's the F# -5 on the B pedal? How is that done, and why?)[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 27 September 2006 at 07:18 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Sep 2006 6:50 pm

That looks like a nice acceptable compromise, b0b. It may sound a little sour when playing alone, but probably works good with a group with ET tuned instruments. It's very close to what I shoot for. But my Ds are sharper. Your chart has the convenience of being in increments of 5 cents, which is the way my Boss meter reads. I usually use the Hz marks, just because they are easier to read on my meter. Differences of less than 5 cents or less than 1 Hz probably are not worth hasseling over.

Jim, b0b's labeling conventions are my favorite ones, and about as close as we have to a universally understood set of labels.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 27 September 2006 at 07:52 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Sep 2006 7:39 pm

Here's mine:

-50c>-----X-----<+50c

I've got it written down.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 27 September 2006 at 08:40 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Sep 2006 10:35 pm

So when someone talks about the "E lever" (or whatever) - how do you know what they mean?

It's the one that lowers the E's. If they mean something else (some people swap the meanings of D and E) it's obvious from the context. On tab, it's obvious by which string it's pulling.

(PS - what's the F# -5 on the B pedal? How is that done, and why?)

That's a compensator to pull the F# into tune with the "pedals down" position. Some people compensate the first string as well. I don't bother with it.

Actually, my F# compensator is backwards from everyone else's. I put the more standard one in the chart above. Click on my copedent below for details. I don't recommend my copedent to anyone, though. It's all wrong.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
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Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Sep 2006 4:46 am

"On tab, it's obvious by which string it's pulling." I guess that makes sense for the E and D levers - except when someone has added a pull to a lever.

But I have tab with the same pulls using "G" and "E" names...so it could be RLR or RKL - there's NO way to know. And then some people use, say, "E" for a lower on the 2nd string - but sometimes use the name for a half step, some for a full step.

But even when it makes a little sense as in b0b's example of the E changes, you still have to decipher it, slowing down the learning process, and it just seems weird that nobody seems to be able to organize things enough to create a standard naming system. There doesn't seem to be a single valid argument *against* doing it - except some people would have to edit tab publications.

So again my question is - why has it stayed mixed up?[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 28 September 2006 at 05:52 AM.]

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 28 Sep 2006 7:10 am

"So again my question is - why has it stayed mixed up?"

Because each publisher took a different approach. Once someone has learned one terminology, they resist changing it.

I've never found it hard to communicate steel ideas. I often say "the E lower lever" or "the second string lower". I actually think that letter names are confusing anyway, and I don't use them in conversation.

When I write tab (which I do infrequently) I use sharps and flats to indicate raises and lowers, ala Crawford's MuSymTab method. I don't see the letter names as useful except as a reference touchpoint in copedent charts.

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/b0bxicon.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
System Administrator 
My Blog<div style="display:none">

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 28 Sep 2006 7:38 am

Thanks for posting this b0b. This is how I've been tuning my steel, so if anyone I meet doesn't like it, I'll tell them I got it from you.

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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; NV 112; Fender Twin Custom 15 ('65 reissue); Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 28 Sep 2006 8:00 am

I find in my limited teaching experience I always refer to the levers as , lower the E'S or raise the E'S. I find a lot of folks refer to standard Emmons set up, but that generally applies to the pedals only. There are many pickers out there with th E lower on the RKL. I guess this is a hold over from the old Sho-Bud Days.
The more knees you have, it seems the stranger, the arrangement is.
I would like to see the E's on the RK's and the D# to D on the RKR. I have the B lowers on my RKL. I find it easier to use there for a 2 chord and the minor also.The vertical with out the pedals down is unhandy for me. It feels like I am trying to lift the guitar off the floor.
I feel like the 6th string lower is overated but maybe my lack of ability is getting in the way of common sense.
This is just my baised, opinionated , opinion.

Old Bud

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Sep 2006 10:51 am

The letter names I used are in no way intended to represent the position of the knee lever. Let me put it this way instead: <pre>bb b open # ##
F# 0 G +10 G# -5
C# -5 D +5 D# -5 E +5
G +10 G# -5 A -0-
D# -5 E +5 F -10 F# -5
A# -10 B +5 (C +10) C# -5
G +10 G# -5 A -0-
(F# -5) F# +5 G +10
D# -5 E +5 F -10
C# -5 D +5
A# -10 B +5 (C +10) C# -5</pre>

The chart was made to provide tuning information, not as guide for organizing your copedent.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 29 September 2006 at 12:06 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 28 Sep 2006 11:44 am

Here is b0b's tuning sorted for easy inspection of intervals: <pre>
E# -10
A# -10
D# - 5
G# - 5
C# - 5
F# 0 high string, +5 or -5 low string, -5 on raised 4th string
B + 5
E + 5
A 0
D + 5
G +10
C +10</pre>[This message was edited by b0b on 29 September 2006 at 12:07 PM.]

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 28 Sep 2006 11:54 am

I would never have enough "cents" to tune that way.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Sep 2006 12:19 pm

Gee, Earnest, when you put it that way it looks so wrong!

But hey, I said it was out of tune. I make no apologies. YYMV, etc.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Sep 2006 12:49 pm

I must point out that the reason for A=0 is cabinet drop. 5 cents is a ballpark figure for E cabinet drop with pedals down. The E and B are tuned to +5, but the E goes a bit flat (and the B becomes C#) when you press on the pedals.

A=0 looks out of place on Earnest's analysis, but it works because of the physical properties of the instrument.
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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">[This message was edited by b0b on 28 September 2006 at 01:51 PM.][This message was edited by b0b on 28 September 2006 at 02:04 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 29 Sep 2006 9:44 am

Unfortunately the layout of b0b's last chart is completely foreign to me. What does it mean?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 29 Sep 2006 11:03 am

The center column is the open string tuning. The columns to the left of it are changes that lower the strings. The columns to the right are changes that raise the strings.

There is no indication of where those changes are on your guitar. This topic is about how I tune the notes on my guitar. It's not about which pedal/lever does what.

By the way, I checked my guitar last night and discovered that the high D (second string lowered) is +5 cents. I've corrected it on both of my charts above, and on Earnest's analysis.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">[This message was edited by b0b on 29 September 2006 at 12:04 PM.][This message was edited by b0b on 29 September 2006 at 12:08 PM.]

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 29 Sep 2006 1:46 pm

B0b, what's the rationale for having the two open F# strings at different offsets? You have the 1st string at 0, while the 7th string is at +5.... what's up with that 1st string?

I assume this relates to your "most common" combinations with other strings? What are those combinations?

Thanks.[This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 29 September 2006 at 02:48 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 29 Sep 2006 1:59 pm

I use the middle F# (7th string) note in two ways:

1. as the 5th of B major (+5)
2. as the 3rd of D major (-5)

The high F# (1st string) could use the same compensation, but instead I just "split the difference" and tune it to the 0 mark. Laziness, I suppose. It doesn't sound bad. I can live with it.

I think of F# as the "middle" of any E9th temperament.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 01 October 2006 at 09:26 AM.]