Prices on raw aluminium?

James Pennebaker · Post by **James Pennebaker** » 14 Aug 2006 7:21 am

I just read on one of the internet guitar amplifier discussion forums that prices on raw aluminium have gone up more than 30% in the past 9 months. The discussion had to do with the the recent increase in price of aluminum electrolytic capacitors. In one case, a certain vendor has raised the price of some US made aluminum electrolytic caps by 63.5%.

We all know there's quite a bit of aluminum used in a pedal steel guitar. I wonder if this will eventually have an effect on what we pay for a new pedal steel?

JP [This message was edited by James Pennebaker on 14 August 2006 at 08:58 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Aug 2006 7:51 am

Sure. Why wouldn't it?

Metal costs are pretty low, though, so I wouldn't expect a "significant" increase, but maybe something on the order of about $50. When compared to the total cost of an instrument, that's rather, well, insignificant.

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 14 Aug 2006 8:47 am

James, I just finished machining a Sho Bud style keyhead. My cost on material alone was $67.00 PLUS shipping for a piece of 6061 aluminum 1 1/4 X 6 X 12 inches long. If I had used 2024, or 7075 stock,I could almost double the cost. My milling machine, although a good sized machine, is not CNC controlled, so we wont even mention the number of hours it takes to mill a keyhead. Aluminum is the most abundant metal ore on the planet yet it is far from cheap. Most people dont realize the material cost alone for a steel guitar. Modern steels are a real bargain compared to the cost of building one. The guitar I am building now I paid $120.00 just for one board of 5-A flame maple to make the body. But, to me it's worth every penny.

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Martin W. Sho-Bud, Super- Pro.
Martin W. Sho-Bud, LDG.

James Pennebaker · Post by **James Pennebaker** » 14 Aug 2006 8:58 am

Agreed that modern steels are a real bargain. I can remember 30 years ago the shock of paying for my first Sho-Bud. Back then, a first quality US made electric guitar was way under $1000 or even $500. And I am talking about what today would be equivalent to a "custom shop" 6 string costing $3000 to $4000 dollars. The cost of a Carter D-10 today, for example, at $2895 is a real bargain indeed. When you think of what goes into a pedal steel guitar as opposed to say a Gibson SG, the pedal steel is reasonable beyond measure. Seems like it certainly did not used to be that way 25 or 30 years ago.

JP[This message was edited by James Pennebaker on 14 August 2006 at 09:59 AM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 14 Aug 2006 9:17 am

My metal costs have more than doubled in the last couple of years. I just had my house re-piped in copper, and he was complaining that copper had gone up 500%, you can imagine how I felt. Not to mention that the cost of helium doubled in less than a year. I'm paying $10 a lb for 308 stainless steel welding sticks. Let's see, the last time I filled up my Excursion I had to take out a second mortgage....

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 14 Aug 2006 9:35 am

James- You broght up an important subject to us all.
I wonder what will happen to the high prices when everybody runs out of money?

I went to a Big chain drug store to get a prescription at $80.00 .

I figured I better check around and went to another smaller pharmacy and the price was $30.00 for the same thing!

By shopping around, I just made $50.00 in one hour.

You can believe it, that from now on, I will not shop at the Big Chain Drug store , for prescriptions again....al

.

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

James Pennebaker · Post by **James Pennebaker** » 14 Aug 2006 10:04 am

Very true Al and good point. A couple of years ago my doctor referred me to a hospital for an MRI. I have no insurance (I'm a musician, don't you know) and it was going to cost $2800.00 at the hospital. My physical therapist had mentioned an outside imaging place and, out of pure curiosity, I called them for their cost. They were $1200.00 plus a 30% discount if you paid cash. I got it done for $830 bucks. It pays to shop around!

JP[This message was edited by James Pennebaker on 14 August 2006 at 11:05 AM.]

Bill Moore (RIP) · Post by **Bill Moore (RIP)** » 14 Aug 2006 12:21 pm

It does pay to shop around, I just bought some aluminium from this company: click here A piece 1 1/4 x 8 x 12 would be 29.28, plus shipping. I Also bought a pound of 308 welding rods for 5.57 at a local welding supply.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 14 Aug 2006 12:58 pm

Hey guys, here is a little secret. If metal retailer tells you that their prices had to go up because the price of metal went up 40 or 50% in the past year, call them for what they really are.

From rock to the mill to the retailer, takes up to a year (and sometimes longer). As anything else, metal is a commodity, some a spot commodity, and is contracted for long before it hits the retailer. All metal, much like gasoline, is over burdened with cartels and middle men.

When someone tells you the cost went up, ask them "In which mill; which middle man and when?"

By the way, 308L & 316L (stainless steel welding rod) has always been worth as much as gold.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 14 August 2006 at 02:01 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Aug 2006 1:00 pm

Aluminum has gone up significantly due to the processing costs (about 1/4th of the aluminum cost is for the electricity to make it). Also, it's being more widely used in cars now (for radiators, engine and transmission castings, and for trim) and for food packaging. Some of the higher grades of aluminum (like 7075) are very difficult to obtain, since Boeing and Airbus have a lock on most all that's made for use in their airplanes. On the bright side, we have about a hundred years' supply (of ore) left on mother earth, and iron ore deposits are similarly estimated.

On the other hand...some estimate we'll be almost out of copper ores in another 25-35 years!

Now you know why recycling is such a big industry!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 14 August 2006 at 02:04 PM.]

Rusty Walker · Post by **Rusty Walker** » 14 Aug 2006 1:59 pm

I've found some good aluminum plate at my local scrap yard.I don't know the grade but it gets the job done.For a 2'x2'x3/4" cost $20.Course the scrap guy likes me.

John Coffman · Post by **John Coffman** » 14 Aug 2006 4:58 pm

I am working on building a chemical plant and metal cost across the board have at least up 37%. This and other cost have us overbudget. Stainless and other processed metal are much higher. Zinc a main component to Alum is up also. Energy cost will continue to go up until it forces a recession as it has in the past. Oil companies will continue to keep cost high and tight demand. It takes energy to produce products so as we have heard before the trickle down effect will soon effect all products. Sorry guys.

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Thomas SD10 3/4,Thomas D10 8/5 and Desert Rose S10 3/4. Beginner

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 14 Aug 2006 5:18 pm

I'm the CFO of an Electrical Engineering firm which manufactures high voltage distribution switchgear. I can tell you that the availability of metal, especially steel, is becoming an enormous problem for world manufacturing. My main headache is finding steel at any price. The US steel industry has been run down to the extent that we are totally reliant on the world market, and countries such as China who are legitimately expanding are using up a good proportion of the materials available.

It's not just metal, wood has the same problem. As a part-time luthier I am finding that the world supply of good wood is declining rapidly.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 14 Aug 2006 9:08 pm

I Also bought a pound of 308 welding rods for 5.57 at a local welding supply

If they have either Lincoln, Red Baron or Blue Max, 1/8 and 5/32 for $5.57/lb, I really want to talk to those people.

The US steel industry has been run down to the extent that we are totally reliant on the world market

End of April, I had to get 40' of 8 x 8 x 1/4, 304L stainless square tube. My supplier couldn't find any in California or have any shipped in, in the time frame that I needed it. We got the last 2 lengths of 8 x 8 x 3/8 in LA, instead and it only cost $160/ft. There's not a great call for that size and the factories in Finland and Korea only make it when they feel like it.

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 15 Aug 2006 12:07 pm

interesting thread.
and quite scary.

I guess the value of my instruments will just increase year after year.

I remember a movie with Edward G Robinson in it. all resources were scarce, particulary fresh food.
when Charleton Heston brought him an apple Robinson shed a few tears at its beauty and rarity.[This message was edited by Randy Reeves on 15 August 2006 at 01:08 PM.][This message was edited by Randy Reeves on 15 August 2006 at 01:08 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Aug 2006 12:39 pm

That movie was "Soylent Green"...scary; people (unknowingly) eating processed people!

Re: The aluminum shortage thing, wonder if we'll ever be melting down old steels just for the metal in 'em?

You never know what's around the next corner.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 15 Aug 2006 1:40 pm

Melting down old steels for the aluminium ? Sounds like the worst kind of horror movie.

I haven't gotten over the horror story of my teenaged years yet... cutting up all those steam locomotives for scrap.

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 15 Aug 2006 3:01 pm

I build my first guitar 6 years ago and I had to pay almost up to 600euro's for all the aluminum parts.Of course that included machining them.Neck and Keyhead are not included in that price.
My whole SD-10(that I build back then)was over 1300Euro's.Thats over $1650
Right now it's only usefull to start building a steel if you can build them in series.Unless you have to much free time on your hands.
You can build a D-10 by using the best quality aluminum and still have to pay top buck.People like Carter and MSA are the ones that done it right.But then again...........they are in business for a very long time.They know what to do and how to do it.

Colm Chomicky · Post by **Colm Chomicky** » 15 Aug 2006 3:22 pm

My uncle Jack came home a couple of months ago. Someone had stolen the gutters off his house ! (It is an old house and the gutters and downspouts were made of copper). But things like alunimun bleacher seats at schools are getting stolen, too. Better make sure the plaques at the SGHOF are bolted on good.

Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 15 Aug 2006 4:40 pm

I have bought from Metals Depot.com just recently for my guitar I am building and their prices were not to bad, and they shipped it in two days, I needed the aluminum leg mounts for my endplates, now I need to drill them out for the legs, my endplates look really nice.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 15 Aug 2006 5:03 pm

Colm, you should live in LA. They were taking man-hole covers and the safety rails for bridges before that got stopped. After the last earthquake, a lot of people bought cast aluminum mailboxes. A bunch of those disappeared until it was pointed out, that it was a Federal offence to take them and recieve them at recycle yards.

I live in Encino, which is not a down-scale neighborhood. I had a 350# aluminum weldment, that I had originally made for a camera crane, in my yard, as a sculpture, with a tree growing up through the center.

I had to play in San Fransisco, one weekend, and when I got back, the "recycle boys" had chopped down the tree and stolen the aluminum.

One of the other problems I have with getting certain metal products is, the suppliers have to pay an inventory tax, on their inventory, so they warehouse the non-essentials elsewhere and ship it in, when needed.[This message was edited by chas smith on 15 August 2006 at 06:05 PM.]

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 15 Aug 2006 7:53 pm

Here in San Francisco we've had to instal security cameras in the factory yard. Even with the cameras on 24 hours a day, over the last few months scavengers have made off with:
A Semi Truck.
2 Trailers.
My moped.
The scap metal bin and its contents
An entire metal container and its contents (the type they ship on railcars).
...but to top it all, they also took for scrap...
The Company Sign and entrance gate.
When we started using heavy duty padlocks that couldn't be cut with a bolt cutter they just cut through the chain-link fence instead !

Don Blood · Post by **Don Blood** » 15 Aug 2006 8:19 pm

I've been buying aluminum to make the psg armrests. I think if I add the extra cost of aluminum to the price I can sell them for, I may not be selling them much longer. www.donblood.com

Mike Pace · Post by **Mike Pace** » 16 Aug 2006 10:56 am

Excellent thread!

I think about this stuff every day...

I work at a municipal transfer station. The way the markets are acting, it has finally started to sink in just how much money we are losing now by throwing stuff in the "dirty" aluminum box, oppossed to taking the time to strip some of these items... We've always cleaned up cast & extrusion stuff like storm windows, & BBQ grills but now the beach chairs, small engine blocks, and patio furniture are shedding their plastic, fabric & steel.....

The way everyone is talking about Copper, it might become cost effective for us to strip wire of it's insulation by years end!

-Mike

Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 19 Aug 2006 7:07 am

I did find out that prices are rising very fast on Aluminum, and that to get a steel guitar neck cast out and this is for one guitar neck, the price of casting it was around $500.00 or possibly $1000,00 dollars just for one neck, and with these prices I do not know how the Steel guitar industry will last unless we make most of them out of carbon fiber or wood, and that includes the headstock being made out of wood or carbon fiber.