Are Keyless steels gaining popularity?

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 9 Sep 2021 4:50 am

Williams top hat brilliant idea ::: one wrench is all you need .
Williams tuning mechanism solves the room too stretch the pesky third string issue.

With the long travel of top hat tuning screw.

GFI no wrench needed on open tuning end.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 9 Sep 2021 5:15 am

Can you see for most players, why this Shild
Keyless steel would feel better on top for the steel player that's use too a key model steel.

PEDAL STEEL It's just not one size fits all instrument.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 9 Sep 2021 5:42 am

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 9 Sep 2021 5:56 am

The goal for acceptance of the keyless pedal should not be all in the compact design.

There is numerous documented good reasons for keyless pedal steels too gain popularity.

The only negative complaints that hold water is they just don't look like a pedal steel should look.

My self l love the look of keyless steels.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 9 Sep 2021 9:51 am

I like keyless.
And as the previous post suggests, it's not all about compactness.
It allows for a longer scale while still lowering the over-tension on E9th's 3rd string.
It reduces string-hysterysis (over returning).
While Bud Carter argued it made overtones more difficult to control, I feel actually the contrary occurs.

I think that the keyless approach still has WAYS to improve and make an even greater sounding guitar. One that would surpass all others in tone. But that still seem "out there".

On the other hand, a keyed guitars looks a little more like a "guitar" to those who have doubts a PSG is even a musical instrument.

... J-D.

John Larson · Post by **John Larson** » 9 Sep 2021 10:32 am

Eventually my next steel will be keyless. The reasons are simple.
1. Weight
2. Tuning stability, shorter body = less flex = less "cabinet drop"
3. less string behind the nut for string binding and overtones.
4. Faster string changes
Coming from the guitar world a lot of the arguments against keyless I see are very similar to the complaints when these started gaining popularity about a decade ago.

People start hearing with their eyes.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 9 Sep 2021 1:20 pm

Once again how it is supposed to look, or feel or sound is still opinion based. I thought keyless was a great idea back in the 70s when David Jackson built a couple Sho-Bud keyless guitars. They played and sounded great too. David and Harry are currently building a new Jackson keyless S12 for me. It will have their Pro V changer and be built with the low profile neck which I believe helps cabinet drop issues. 25" scale with single coil Sho-Bud type pickup.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 9 Sep 2021 1:33 pm

John Cool headless guitar .
I would like too build a headless lap steel like your guitar.

John Larson wrote:Eventually my next steel will be keyless. The reasons are simple.
1. Weight
2. Tuning stability, shorter body = less flex = less "cabinet drop"
3. less string behind the nut for string binding and overtones.
4. Faster string changes
Coming from the guitar world a lot of the arguments against keyless I see are very similar to the complaints when these started gaining popularity about a decade ago.

People start hearing with their eyes.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 9 Sep 2021 3:40 pm

Johnnie asks if keyless steels are gaining popularity.

Maybe the conservative prejudice against them is beginning to break down. I like them, but they don't fix anything that's broke. If you're used to grabbing a key to quickly correct a tuning drift, why would you want the extra trouble of finding a tool? And if you're used to the A pedal being well to the left of the nut a keyless is going to feel cramped until you get used to it.

But they are definitely more "scientific" for better or worse.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 9 Sep 2021 4:42 pm

Actually ON GFI steels you don't need a wrench for open tuning.

Daniel McKee · Post by **Daniel McKee** » 9 Sep 2021 8:53 pm

Id like to see more options to get a longer scale keyless. A few companies offer keyless but most offer it in the same scale as keyed. Excel offers it in 25.5 which is longer than I want (even though I do think they sound great) 24.5-25 would be my preference.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 9 Sep 2021 10:20 pm

To try and address the meat of the question, I'd have to say no, the keyless system is not gaining ground.

Maybe when Sierra introduced gearless guitars in the late 80s and offered them for about 20 yrs. the ratio was higher.

I don't have any stats of course, but I'd be comfortable venturing a guess that at least less than 10% of pedal steel players own and play keyless guitars.

Sharon of the Indy club used to play a keyless Sierra, she's the only one I can think of anywhere close that played keyless'round these parts.

I can't think of a single other player in my area that has played a keyless guitar at least in the last 30 or 40 yrs.

I've owned 4 keyless guitars, 2 Sierra U14S, a Williams and a Lamar D10. I could not tell one bit of difference in the conventional keyed heads and the keyless as it pertains to tone or sustain etc.

I actually like the way they look, particularly with 12 and 14 stringers because they just look sleeker and less cluttered.

I don't understand the stigma at all. I personally think a lot of it is to quote Tom Bradshaw, hearing with the eyes and I don't expect the popularity to gain change anytime soon. The wrench thing is a poor reason to shun keyless IMO. You gotta have a pedal tuning wrench anyway and you can modify or buy a wrench for both tuning functions.

When Williams guitars first came out they were only offered with a keyless tuner system IIRC. That single feature was the reason I wanted one of those. I was quite surprised to learn that he later produced guitars with conventional keyheads. I was flabbergasted to know that anyone would want a Williams with a keyhead as that seemed to me the reason to buy one.

Far as I know, Williams, BMI, GFI, Sierra by Ross, Excel, Schild still build keyless guitars, so I guess there must still be a small market for them.

But, you don't need a reason to like or dislike either. I'm glad there are choices for players to decide on.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 10 Sep 2021 2:51 am

The “pros” & “cons” and keyless guitars have thoroughly been discussed ad nauseum. My main dislike is that they look like zithers or audoharps.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Sep 2021 4:41 am

Johnie King wrote: There is numerous documented good reasons for keyless pedal steels too gain popularity. The only negative complaints that hold water is they just don't look like a pedal steel should look.

The biggest complaint I hear is that you usually need some kind of a "tool"; either to change strings, or to tune the open strings.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 10 Sep 2021 6:56 am

Maybe Gene Fields of GFI actually was at least convinced , that Keyless steels were superior systems for pedal steels.

Larry Ball · Post by **Larry Ball** » 10 Sep 2021 7:51 am

I have both “Types” and love them both for different reasons. However when it comes to changing strings I find the “Keyless” easier. No special tools required.. your tuning wrench is the same size. You can get a good tuning wrench for the open strings, pedals and levers which also works for changing strings that has a better handle on it.

String winders of different types are available for keyed heads so it is all about convenience.

Larry

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 10 Sep 2021 8:18 am

I like the system and don't mind the looks but always had a hard time installing 3rd string .11

Would really need to crank up the initial tension when putting on the string so the tuner still had enough travel to bring the string to pitch as it stretched out.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 10 Sep 2021 11:34 am

I've said this before, but I have never heard a keyless steel that I thought sounded good. YMMV.

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 10 Sep 2021 12:10 pm

I’ve only played one keyless guitar. I’m sure the problem I encountered was an error in putting the strings on, but when sliding down to the first fret, my hand came up bloody from a string end sticking up.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 10 Sep 2021 12:29 pm

Wow Johnny I’m probably more excited too see your new Jackson Keyless Steel with the pro Five changer than you are.

I hope David and Harry might consider building more keyless 12 string steels ,with your
New copeadent.

I can’t help wonder if pedal steel would have ever developed into a modern America
Instrument that we enjoy today.

Without the innovation Of Shot,Harry,David, Buddy an all guys,like you an others that
Were there at the beginning of the Sho Bud company with your own innovative ideas on pedal steel playability an tone!!

Johnny Cox wrote:Once again how it is supposed to look, or feel or sound is still opinion based. I thought keyless was a great idea back in the 70s when David Jackson built a couple Sho-Bud keyless guitars. They played and sounded great too. David and Harry are currently building a new Jackson keyless S12 for me. It will have their Pro V changer and be built with the low profile neck which I believe helps cabinet drop issues. 25" scale with single coil Sho-Bud type pickup.

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 14 Sep 2021 5:41 am

Johnny,Sometime last year Chuck Back built me a Keyless Desert Rose S-10 3+5guitar and after a little tweaking knee levers I must say that this is my favorite guitar that I own .Unfortunately the guy who made the keyless tuner has quit making them,I would like to add that I've never played a keyless guitar before and after I got over the string changing paranoia I love this little guitar.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 14 Sep 2021 5:45 am

That’s s good news Stu congratulations.
I would like too see a couple pictures of your Desert Rose Keyless.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 14 Sep 2021 5:51 am

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 14 Sep 2021 6:21 am

Johnnie,Send me an email at sturoomers@gmail.com
And I'll send back some pictures.
Stu

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 14 Sep 2021 7:40 am

I have a new U-12 Sierra and an older U-12 Williams both with Steeltronics ZB single coil pickups. All the benefits as mentioned above and a very pleasing tone.