Fender 1000 And Its Credits

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Jul 2006 4:45 am

"why doesn't a Fender 1000 sustain better than a Mullen, an Emmons or a Carter? I'm sure there's an answer that has nothing to do with roller nuts."

As I mentioned, pickups are completely different, as are peghead designs and changers. As Bill mentions, the alloys may have a lot to do with it as well.

Also - "If the acoustic transfer benefit of a solid bridge makes sense, why doesn't a Fender 1000 sustain better than a Mullen, an Emmons or a Carter?"

Remeber, those guitars have an integrated bridge/changer, while the early Fenders we're mainly talking about had a lightweight sheet-metal changer and a bar bridge attached to the guitar with two bolts through a couple bent-metal flanges. A huge difference in the string attachment and stability (mainly having to do with vibration/energy loss, not tuning problems, which are nil). the ater models with the cam bridge seem to be much more mechanically "tight" - but interestingly, if you play the guitars without being plugged in the "loose" old types ring much louder acoustically - again implying that vibration energy is going somewhere OTHER than to sustain.

But again, I haven't really experienced the sustain "problem" that seems to be mentioned often (whether on my long or short-scale models, and others that I've playedas well), and when I listen to Sneaky and Al playing the long-scale models I hear great sustain also. One other thought - Pete's earier recordings seem to lack a little sustain, but later ones don't. He used Twins in the 60's, Peaveys later. Could the a combination of the particular guitars AND the amps used in the 60's be part of the sustain equation? I don't know, but it's a thought to ponder.

And I'll mention Al & Pete again as far as tone - unique tone, yes - but undesirable...how?[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 28 July 2006 at 06:22 AM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 28 Jul 2006 8:41 am

Bill posted and I quote.

Jim Sliff
Member
From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
posted 28 July 2006 05:45 AM profile send email edit
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"why doesn't a Fender 1000 sustain better than a Mullen, an Emmons or a Carter? I'm sure there's an answer that has nothing to do with roller nuts."

Bill, couid it be the "almag frame" that eliminates cabinet drop and yet,may supress the vibration going through a body of wood.?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 28 Jul 2006 10:24 am

Jody,

You may want to reconsider such claims that any steel guitar has no detuning problems. I'd say, lead me to it, and allow me to stress test with foot and activated knee levers. Keep in mind the fact that early models were not equipped with knee levers. Eight strings would produce a lessened pull, negating fair comparisons. Ten and 12 string guitars produce a much greater pull which puts a great amount of stress on the instruments. The detuning is quite like the "straw that broke the camel's back".

Steve Zinno · Post by **Steve Zinno** » 28 Jul 2006 11:25 am

Jim, I'm just curious - is your 1000 the older 24.5 scale ? I owned one about 25 years ago, and I could not keep a high G# on it. Tried 9s, 10s, and 11s, and it broke all of them very easily. I sold it for that reason and didn't need the double-neck at the time (heavy!!!)- wish I'd kept it though. Beautiful guitar purchased from the original owner.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 28 Jul 2006 12:06 pm

Steve
10 guage should have worked. It does on my 1000 and the length is 24 1/2. Are you trying
to raise it to A?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Jul 2006 2:20 pm

Steve - yep, it's and older one, and the G# is an .011 from a "Scotty's" set I had laying around. Been on there for months (admittedly part of the time with Gary Spaeth's "shim roller" over the bar bridge), and gets played every day. Before that it had Ernie Ball single strings on it because I didn't have any pedal steel sets, and no place here sells them. That .011 didn't break either.

Never broke the .011's or .013's (depending on my mood) that I used on my B-Bender Telecasters, either. I used to use sewing machine oil, now Teflon lube.

I really am convinced the breakage "back in the day" may have partially been string quality...nowdays, breakage would likely be a defect (burr or something) on the bridge piece.

It can't be that I'm just overly lucky.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Jul 2006 2:43 pm

Perhaps your nut lubricant solved the problem. Most people don't lube their nuts.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Jul 2006 3:50 pm

Thanks Bobby - I just spit coffee all over the screen...you don't know (well, you probably do) how bad I needed that laugh right now.

Jim

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 28 Jul 2006 3:57 pm

Me Too

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Jul 2006 4:16 pm

Donny, I understand you aren't *interested* in "regular" guitar.

Jim, nothing could be further from the truth. I started my "professional" music career playing lead guitar in an all-instrumental band (Ventures-type music) in about '60. I progressed into playing lead in about 4 different Brittish music bands, and I closed out my straight-guitar career playing for motown and soul music bands in the late '60s. I have a small collection of guitars, among them a pre civil-war Martin guitar (probably one of the best examples in the country, if not the world). I also have a just about every collectors' book there is on straight guitars, and continue to follow prices and market trends on collector guitars.

However...

We're on a steel guitar forum, discussing pedal steel characteristics in a pedal steel category, and I think that bringing up anecdotal theories about straight-guitars is counter-productive...to this discussion.

If you want to talk straight guitars, go over to the "Music" category, and I'll continue to argue with you.

But I'm done here.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 29 Jul 2006 5:15 am

Jody,

The Fender 1000 it appears was the launching pad for aspiring steel guitarists. I'm not aware of by name any other instrument with as many options in that time period. It may not be known that 10 or 15 years after the first 1000 was produced, a train load of "student" or "beginner's" models flooded the retail outlets. They featured the play one song, and then retune the instrument. It was an impossible nuisance trying to struggle with detuning, combined with those prone to malfunction contrivances. Surprisingly, the tonal quality was the best feature to be found, approaching that of much higher priced professional models equipped with the universal changers. Springs became the principle means of changer successes, and remain so to this day. The springs regulate a desired tension, although they were at times overplayed. As always, different levels of quality can be found in manufactured goods, and springs are not an exception to the rule. Jody C. reflected his thoughts relating to Fender's adaptation to the sturdy "almag" framework, resulting in a consequence of reduced cabinet drop. To date, pros and cons remain at large on this issue, and nothing has been established to assure that the problem has been fully explained. The SGF offers perfectly an opportunity for those "in the know" to share their expertise, and "shed some light" in the interest of the steel guitar, and the SGF's readership.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 29 Jul 2006 8:25 am

Donny (if you're still reading - the comparisons are valid, because as technical issues things have been put to bed years ago in the "other" guitar world that oddly are still debated here...and the roller bridge is an important issue long decided in the "other" place.

I apologize for misconstruing your desire not to include "regular" guitars in the discussion as disinterest. but I certainly think as "machines" there are far more similarities than differences, and it's surprising to me and some other veteran guitar players "new" to the steel world that some of these things are even thought of as issues. So it's perfectly valid to bring the comparisons up.

You can't lock steel away in a room and say "we're not going to compare it to ANYTHING else." It's quaint, but rather provincial and by eliminating proven physical qualities because you don't WANT them included, quite invalid.

Steve Zinno · Post by **Steve Zinno** » 29 Jul 2006 8:32 am

Jim, Jody - thanks, was just curious. I did have the pull to A of course, but sometimes couldn't even tune it up to G#. I didn't know about the trick of bending the hognose ring 90 degrees like your pic though, so maybe it would have been enough to correct my problem. There was no internet back then and VERY little info about steels in my area, so I just figured it was a limitation of the instrument. It's really great to read this forum and learn these things.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 30 Jul 2006 9:59 pm

I recently finished some work on a 400 for Ed Bierly. It was the first time I'd ever worked on a cable drive Fender. Those guitars are awesome in their stark simplcity
and their sound is incredible IMO. The only thing I noticed about it is that the changer balance springs were a little overkill in the tension department. Another "shortcoming" (?) would be the lack of selectivity re: ratios. The pedals are either down or up. . . the length of travel is determined by what the change is doing to the changer. But all is forgiven! Ed's guitar was built on 11/25/1958!!! Most players were using gas pedals and coat hangers!!! A very well made, well thought-out instrument for its time. Ed's guitar now has 9 pedals, the first 8 the same as Sneeky's, with the B6 tuning. These things were built for the long haul for sure. Since the neck and the frame are almost independent of each other - save for 4 small wood screws - there is zip for cabinet drop. Leo, ya done fine!!! With a little TLC and proper setup, these half-century-old beasts of burden can still do the job very well and with a sound that will never be duplicated in our lifetimes.
The fact that there are still so many of them still around after 4 or 5 decades ought to be testament enough as to their integrity.

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Gerald Pierce · Post by **Gerald Pierce** » 31 Jul 2006 12:03 am

It's not finished by any means, but I've got the beginnings of a page devoted to Fender pedal steels up at>
http://www.unclestick.com/fender

Take a look and see what you think it might need.

Input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks! - GP

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 31 Jul 2006 5:06 am

Paul R.,

I enjoyed reading about your activities consisting of making adjustments on the Fender 400. I've sold a few early models in the past. A lady purchased one from me, and she mentioned having problems with the spacing of the A&B pedals of the 9th neck. After some thought I installed a wedge shaped piece of hardwood between the rack & pedal.The add on facilitated a change that resulted in better positioning of her small foot. She married and moved on, not leaving a trace of her progress on the F.400.
I became attracted to the E9th chromatic tuning, featuring the "inside out" tone of the second string. Someone had a penchant for a good thing. The need for a 10 string steel guitar culminated into a homemade model, with my initials beneath. After years of pleasure,
trying to gain new ground on the instrument, I realized that fretboards on a steel guitar could be improved upon. My ease of playing was markedly improved with the inception of the upright fretboard located at the "nose of the bar". I feel strongly that this concept will win out in the future.

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 2 Aug 2006 4:18 am

Paul,

Great work on Ed's guitar! It looks like a real beauty.

Russ

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Aug 2006 4:34 am

Actually, I saw a much better use in the late 70's - an old girlfriend asked for every castoff string from string changes for about a year.

October 31st, we went to a party and she had woven and curled the strings into a Halloween costume. She was wearing ALL strings. She won the contest.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 2 Aug 2006 9:37 am

Very creative girlfriend... probably I'd better stop right there...[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 02 August 2006 at 11:27 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 2 Aug 2006 10:06 am

Phred[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 12 August 2006 at 04:56 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 2 Aug 2006 10:35 am

This is a very interesting post about Fenders of those days.
I was playing in Phoenix and sold my MSA and took a Fender 400, 8 strings 4 pedals and a homemade knee lever. I had to play that 3 mights a week with the "Country Counts" for about 3 months , waiting for my new MSA D12. A picture of it is on my Website in a ad with the band.

I had to modify the E9 tuning somewhat to compenste, but I did it and even played in D6 for some of those big modern chords. It workd pretty good and the Fender did well, but broke a lot of G# strings, like a lot of other guys did. But it played in tune pretty darn good and stayed there too. I was impressed by the little bugger, but glad to get my MSA D12...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Ron Elliott · Post by **Ron Elliott** » 2 Aug 2006 2:04 pm

I, too, had one of those big dudes,The Fender 1000 D-8. My first time on the Grand Ole Opry was with the 1000. It did all it was supposed to do. I used the E9th Chromatic 8 string arrangment and C6. I think as we get older, the 2-case thing might show some merit(speaking for my own back) Good post guys ! Ron

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 3 Aug 2006 7:17 am

Ron E.,

Thanks for your input. It is very much appreciated. I sure would like to review the old clips of your performance at the opry. The camera work was great on many of the earlier performances, quite often allowing a good view of the steel guitarist. The earlier recordings (including yours) are treasures of the best in steel guitar entertainment. Thanks again for the Fender 1000 information.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 3 Aug 2006 10:09 am

Bill and Ron, I have a question for Ron. Was your 1000 the early model with the 24 1/2 string length? and did it have the square jazzmaster style pickups? Your answer will be appreciated.
This is a great thread.
edited for spelling.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 03 August 2006 at 11:11 AM.]

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 6 Aug 2006 5:57 am

jody.cool web site. your my hero!