U-12 and the E to Eb lever ...

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 14 Aug 2006 6:46 am

I've never played a universal, but ... I just ordered a GFI! I'm a hobby player and am looking forward to having fun with it.

The discussions about a lock lever to hold the tuning in the B6 position has me wondering whether it's necessary to hold the E lever engaged throughout an entire tune that is being played in the 6th tuning. Unless you're a rank beginner, you're used to engaging and releasing pedals & levers all the time. If you can play fast, you're probably "pedalling" very fast as well. So ... when playing in the 6th tuning, why not just engage the E lever when you need it, rather than trying to keep it pressed in place for an entire song, or whatever you're playing?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 Aug 2006 7:11 am

Don, it's perfectly possible to learn to play 6th style music on a uni by using the Eb lever on and off. You can play 6th style with the AB pedals down in E9 mode, like Lloyed Green does (makes it an A6 neck). So you can certainly go back and forth between E9 mode and B6 mode for playing 6th style swing and jazz.

But many players come to uni from 10-string C6, and they tend to want to keep thinking in the two-neck way. Also, they may have a center knee cluster for the B6 mode, and so take their feet off the E9 pedals. Also, many 6th neckers started on a no-pedal 6th tuning. When they go into that mode of thinking, they think of the neck as a lap C6th, and the E9 string configuration and pedals just don't enter into that. Some people play a uni that is in the 6th mode without activating any levers. You have to hit a lever to get the 9th mode.

I think thoroughly mixing the 6th mode and 9th mode for a powerful single, big-neck style has a few proponents. But somehow that style has not yet had the kind of virtuoso champion that can demonstrate the full potential and completely breakout of the two-neck mentality. Playing other styles of music on a uni doesn't seem to impress many steelers. What it will take is for someone to show that Western swing and jazz can be played better on a uni than on a dedicated C6th neck. Being "just as good as" doesn't seem to sway many people. If it's not better, why switch? That may be an unfair hurdle, but this seems to be the situation.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 14 Aug 2006 8:54 am

I play UNI 12
I have Eb's lower on LKR
I used a lock initially
But now it is transparent and i use the knee lever naturally.
No need for lock and i may go in/out of tuning during a song.

I may use left knee to hold in Eb lower while i also use it to hitr my verticle knee and while i have left foot moving between Boo-Wah and 2up pedal. It took some practice but it works for me.

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 14 Aug 2006 9:24 am

Don,

Learn your chord positions based on combinations of pedal/levers. Forget about being in B6, E9, A6, mode or what ever. Think only of what key the song is written in and select the chord positions that most easily fit the song. U12 is one big guitar neck and thats all it is! I have played standard six string guitar for 50 years and never came across a discussion of what key the neck was in except for UNIQUE or SPECIAL applications.

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 14 Aug 2006 10:30 am

Some need it and some don't. But if you desire a completely seperate tuning mechanism (additional tuning rods in the changer), the EXCEL locking mechanism is not mechanically connected with a cam to the Eb lever. EXCEL has a stand alone leverage and tuning system for the B6 with no effect to the E to Eb change in the E9 tuning. Should you be one to temper in both tunings, the EXCEL gives you this capability. Engage the lock lever and then tune the Eb notes as you desire in B8. When you release this mechanism, it goes back to the E9 with the Eb lever being tuned to your specifications on different turning rods. The five raise and five lower changer allows you this freedom. Neat system, and as far as I know, this is the only steel with that capability, plus a 25 1/2" scale on the Superb models.
Bill Stafford

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 14 Aug 2006 10:32 am

Sorry for the B* type,,,B6 it is... lol

Bill Stafford

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 14 Aug 2006 10:51 am

Thanks for the replies, folks. I appreciate the comments.

Just to clarify, I'm an experienced player (note I didn't say "good"

), I've always played a D-10 until now and I know the positions in both tunings quite well. I was really just wondering how many find it's unnecessary to keep that lever engaged. As some of you have indicated, learning the positions and integrating the 2 tunings as much as possible is the ultimate goal.

It's great to chat about this sort of thing again. I sold off all my equipment in January thinking I'd had enough ... Ha!! Can't wait to get back at it!

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 14 Aug 2006 10:59 am

Hi Don, On the GFI steels the E-E flat lower is on the LKR. I think it is better with it on RKR or RKL. On my guitar and most universals, it is on RKR. This way, it's easy to keep your knee over while your left foot goes over pedals 4 to 7 or 8 depending on the type of guitar one has. Most Universal players just think of it as one big tuning instead of thinking 9ths or 6ths. Best not to have a lock lever IMHO, so you can flow from the Country sounds to the Jazzy chords, all within one single song. Enjoy your universal Don, I know you will for sure

Micky Byrne www.mickybyrne.com

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 14 Aug 2006 11:09 am

Hi, Mickey. Thanks for the comment. Yes, I've ordered it that way, LKL is the "F" lever, RKL is the E-EB lever. That's what I was used to on my E9 neck.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 14 Aug 2006 11:18 am

I have always assumed that the lock is primarily for D-10 dyed-in-the-wool C6 players who want to cross over to U-12 with a minimum of re-learning. And that's fine. Flick a switch and convert your neck to B6. But if you are open to expanding the neck then Don, you are absolutely right in your speculation that you can come on & off the E lower lever at will, on demand.

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 14 Aug 2006 11:39 am

Don: Its nice if you have a lock on that E to Eb lever, that helps a lot if your doing a lot of B6th. I have an HMS S-12 with a real neat little lever that just flips er into B6th. I have the lever on the LRL, cause I can lock it. If I could not lock the lever, I would want it on RRL. I have played D-10 & Universals off & on for 30 years, either way will work. some universal players like to wander around through both tunings, which really could be a good thing I guess, but me, I am either an E9th picker or a B6th picker on those S-12's. PS: I have been back on the D-10 for a month or so, so I guess I am happy either way, as long as I have some sort of 6th tuning to use!!

Ernie

http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

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Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 14 Aug 2006 2:09 pm

The most visible proponent of the E9/B6 universal for many years was the late Jeff Newman who lowered his E's on his RKR lever as I do myself. Before I went the Uni route I had an extended E9th ShoBud which had the E's lowered on LKR which to me didn't and still doesn't seem practical especially if you don't have a lock. I've had my current guitar (BMI) for about 16 years now and it had a lock on it when I got the instrument but that's the first thing I took off of it as I think of it as all one big tuning. I've never played C6th except a small bit on lap steel so it's never been a large part of my pedal steel playing. A modern day steeler who's excellent on a Universal in my opinion (and a lot of other folks) is Joe Wright. He can do it all. I'd like to know his opinion of the lock and which lever he's got his E lowers on....JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 14 Aug 2006 6:36 pm

here ya go jerry:

http://www.pedalsteel.com/joe/coped.html

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 14 Aug 2006 9:33 pm

Jeff Newman displayed all the virtuosity imagineable on the Uni 7 & 4 setup he used. He told me once not to think E9 or B 6. . .think of it as one tuning with the capabilites of going from one to the other at will to get the very notes or chords that fit the song you are playing. I never forgot that. Since then, I've used the 12st tuning minus the 2 bass strings to utilize the A6 side of the E9 tuning and have found that, using the standard E9 pedals & levers, I can get 95% of the "6th stuff" ( including the Night Life intro!) on the E9 neck. I use a lock on my Whitney at will, but don't often use it. That guitar has 8FP, 7KL, & 2 locks. It also weighs 15+ pounds more than the S10 I usually gig with that only has 4FP & 6KL. Using the A6 side of the E9 tuning also allows you to use familiar E9 grips and fret positions AND familiar KL changes along with the pedals. Been using that setup now for about 5 years. Haven't had any complaints yet!!!

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 14 Aug 2006 9:46 pm

P.S. - I failed to mention in the previous post that I also tune my 2nd string to a D rather than D# a la the late Jimmie Crawford. He and I had a long coversation about that at Scotty's one time. Ralph Mooney never used the so-called "chromatic" strings on any of his setups. There's so much more to be discovered on the rest of the tuning that the first 2 strings almost become inconsequential. . .just nice to have around when you want them. If y'all are interested in this 10st setup, I'll post it in the future.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 15 Aug 2006 6:56 am

Maybe I overlooked it, but I didn't see anyone mention using both feet with the B6 tuning. It would be very difficult to use both feet if you don't have a B6 lock.
I have a lock on my Marlen. Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't, but I'm glad it's there.

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www.home.earthlink.net/~johnd37

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 15 Aug 2006 8:18 am

A lock on a 12 string is a throwback to double neck mentality, a double neck is a throwback to the non-pedal era, whereby to eliminate the need for reverse slants and a particular sound one needed multiple tunings/necks. Why drag old techniques over to an instrument that doesn't require them? By doing so, you make a simple concept complicated.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 15 Aug 2006 10:21 am

Pedal steel is still an infant compared for instance to the development of the lute and all it's modern descendants - guitar,mandolin,etc. Those instruments have had 500 years to settle into something that everyone agrees on.So it's natural at this point in time for there to be all sorts of variations ironing themselves out amongst different PSG players. The fact that a certain player uses a non-mainstream tuning,does or doesn't use a lever lock,has a certain lever on a different knee than everyone else,etc,etc is all part of the process. We won't live to see the standardization of the pedal steel and the day where these sorts of discussions dissapear.As far as universal tunings go,if I knew 30 years ago what I know now,I'd be playing Zane Becks E13 12-string w/4&5.
Has anyone out there ever analized that one? It has more "less is more" than any other U-12 including Jeff Newman's copedant and a lever lock is truly useless on that one.

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 15 Aug 2006 11:14 am

Hey Mike,on my old Shobud (Which I wish I still had) I used the following copedant:
<pre>
LKL LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 RKL RKR
F#
D# D C#
G# A
E F# F D#
B A# C# C#
G# A A#
F# F
E D F D#
B C A# C#
G# A
E D# F C#
B G# C#
</pre>

As you can see it's pretty compact. LKL did the BooWah thing and it's amazing that with 4 pulls on that one lever it wasn't hard to engage. The 'bud was a '77 Pro I which had the double raise/single lower changer. I still miss that guitar and all it would do with almost minimal pedals & levers......JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 17 Aug 2006 4:23 am

When I bought my new Excel , I had the lock put on just in case I wanted to use it , but since my steel is a "Universal" I go back and forth with my B6 lever which is on the RKR ala Jeff Newman .... My copedant is a little bit different from Jeff's as I add the LKR and also have an 8th pedal at my disposal .... If I'm lazy , I lock it in , and if I want more of variety in my playing style , I will unlock it , and go back and forth from the B6 tuning to the E9 tuning ..... It opens up to more changes are expression with the lock off ....Again, this is just how I play ....YMMV .....Sincerely, Jim[This message was edited by James Quackenbush on 17 August 2006 at 05:24 AM.]