Ultimate made from scratch pedal steel, what parts?

[Paul Leoni]

Not talking design here,only things like bearing changer etc. Who does what best and why? I think this could be a very very enlightening and entertaining subject.
Thanks! For example the Checker cab company used the best parts from everyone and made a multimillion mile vehicle.....
Thoughts?

[Chris Lucker]

Things like ball bearings are not conducive to tone. You need to decide what you want. Is it a slick playing pedal steel or a great sounding one.
I have had a lot of pedal steels. Fewer than one hundred, but I will get there. I have had some magnificently designed and machined guitars that were a pleasure to play that had all the tone of a pile of wet Army blankets.
To use your example, ball bearings add nothing to tone, just as roller nuts add nothing. In fact, every screw attaching chunks of stuff to a cabinet does nothing to add to tone.
If you were seeking to kill vibrations, I would start adding ball bearings.

[Ian Rae]

First knee-jerk reactions, with no thought involved:-

Knee 1:- all manufacturers now build to such a high standard I'm not that "best" exists anywhere.

Knee 2:- those same builders design as a whole so mixing and matching won't necessarily get the best out of any component.

Now I'll shut up and let you think

[Jim Pitman]

I doubt most PSG makers start out with putting tone at the top of the requirements. I assume it's landed on by gosh in fact. With that in mind start out by experimenting with a steel guitar without pedals an radically change the design until you are happy with the tone then gradually add the mechanics that enable changes.

[Dan Kelly]

Hey Paul!

A good place to start looking down that rabbit hole would be to check out Ross Shafer's "Makin Chips" video's on YouTube. Here is a link to get you started:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_os0BmS2_fQ

The videos cover a wide variety of individual parts and there are a number of videos on assembly. They are short and very entertaining.

Ross spent about 4 years purchasing, examining and reselling just about every major, minor and obscure PSG brand on earth to learn about what works and to learn about what he could improve. He also picked the brains of many industry mavens along the way. The result is the New "RS" Sierra Steel Guitars. Check 'em out at sierrasteels.com

Watching Ross' videos should be a good place to start your own quest!

[Chris Lucker]

Adding mechanics is one of the issues. Play three JCHs, example, side by side. One a 9/9 and the others an 8/4 and an 8/5 with the vertical not hooked up. If you don’t want clear and piercing tone with overtones and character, go with the 9/9 and lots of moving parts screwed into the cabinet.

[Donny Hinson]

I agree with Chris in that ball-bearing changers offer little or no advantage. They may even impede tone and sustain because the surface contact area is reduced. And from a mechanical engineering standpoint, there's just not enough rotation there to justify their use. I dunno, it seems there's always somebody who wants to "one-up the next guy" with an equipment advantage, but the real area that needs improvement is almost always between the seat and the steel.

Players and guitars may be more "capable" these days, and steels are certainly (mechanically) better than they used to be. But as far as the actual sound goes, nothing I've heard in the last 20-30 years sounds any better than what I was hearing back in the '60s and '70s.

[Kelcey ONeil]

I doubt most PSG makers start out with putting tone at the top of the requirements. I assume it's landed on by gosh in fact. With that in mind start out by experimenting with a steel guitar without pedals an radically change the design until you are happy with the tone then gradually add the mechanics that enable changes.

I think Jim makes a good point that has been ignored all to often in the music business in general. Take the CBS era of Fender when “more was more”... and less. Musical instruments occupy a unique space in the world where technical excellence is almost always conversely related to musical quality. It seems to be a stubborn reminder that what beats in a persons chest is not to be deemed subordinate to what occupies the space between their ears. An instrument is meant to simply be a means of transmission from the heart of the player to the hearing of the ear, and the fewer things in between the more effective the instrument is in its purpose.

That being said, when pedals began to be a thing it was paramount that the character of the steel not be lost in translation; tone was more important than the gadgets. At the time it was not considered to be a different instrument altogether, just an expansion of what already was. Nowadays, the majority of pedal people can’t play an open tuning at all, and many of the lap Steelers can’t or don’t play pedals. For one reason or another, the pedal steel has effectively became just the pedal guitar: a mechanical device that happens to make music too.

In short, the simpler and more direct a design can be made with high quality but basic materials, is almost the best bet for a winning musical instrument.

[Chris Lucker]

I agree with what Kelcey has said. In fact, in that vein, being someone who never played pedal steel until 1999 and finally respecting the guidance of my friend of Mike Cass over the same period of time, I sought to learn in a small amount what he did. I have an enviable collection of the greatest pedal steel guitars. But four years ago I went back to a simple Wright, with pedals removed. I learned and would add a change or two as I learned I knew what they were for and why I wanted them-wishing I didn’t need to slant or jump octaves. I am at 1964 now. But in 1999 I had all the pedals and knees, but as Mike would say, my guitar was playing me. I now have learned to play pedal steel. Thank you Mike.

[Kelcey ONeil]

Chris also makes a very good point: playing without the pedals/levers makes you a better player when you do use them. I may be hawking a heresy here, but I think one of the reasons seemingly so few people take up the pedal steel these days is the idea that one MUST have at least 3x4 to even hope to begin to play the instrument. Many feel just overwhelmed at this notion and give it up before the really even begin. Truth is, 3x1 is more than enough for any beginner, and the pureness of tone likely produced by such a simple setup( not to mention ease of play, the more stuff you add, the clunkier they seem to get) will be more conducive to good progress than any amount of mechanical intervention.

To remain on topic, simple changer mechanisms like the Emmons Push Pull, or even an all pull design like the Sho Bud Fingertip, offer robust reliability and minimal lost energy at the changer making for great tone throughout. Also, designs that isolate the changer from the neck and endplate contribute further to energy transfer from the strings to the body( and hence the pickup) which increase tone and sustain.

[Joe Krumel]

What Donny said........

[Paul Leoni]

Tone in any electric guitar is completely determined by the rigidity between the two attaching point of the string. Any solid body guitar is going to sound extremely similar. Tone? Pickups and rigidity of the string attaching points. Want to really affect tone where you can immediately hear it? Try a lightweight vs big heavy bar *that* will affect tone and sustain. There is no reason not to use ball bearings other than economy and there I feel the gain is worth the trade.

[Paul Leoni]

But as far as the actual sound goes, nothing I've heard in the last 20-30 years sounds any better than what I was hearing back in the '60s and '70s.

Exactly. Tone is determined by pickups and string rigidity in solid body instruments.
What is paramount is feel, reliability and for God's sake economics! We are destroying the instrument with "eliteness" Not only economically but in other ways too.

[Paul Leoni]

An observation. Far to much complexity for such a simple circuit. Begs simplification.

[Paul Leoni]

I doubt most PSG makers start out with putting tone at the top of the requirements. I assume it's landed on by gosh in fact. With that in mind start out by experimenting with a steel guitar without pedals an radically change the design until you are happy with the tone then gradually add the mechanics that enable changes.

Imo, tone is the easy part. All technology that directly affects tone has long been worked out by guitar manufacturers and tremolo design. For example roller bridges do very little to tone/sustain on a solid body electric guitar. Wanna mess with tone (timbre)? Mess with pickups, nuts bridges and scale length.

[Paul Leoni]

Do we all assume that maximum sustain is what we are going for? I would assume so as we are not going for a "pedal dobro" or "pedal archtop". My thoughts are that a solid steel 500 pound unit would probably sound great. Obviously this is not viable but what is viable is putting the "weight" where it will provide the least energy loss. I wonder about these guitars that isolate the "neck" from the body for "tone".
I know I am opening a huge can of worms but maybe that can needs to be open. There are a lot of potential players out there who will never have access to a pedal steel because there are zero quality affordable simple instruments available.

[Kelcey ONeil]

Do we all assume that maximum sustain is what we are going for? I would assume so as we are not going for a "pedal dobro" or "pedal archtop". My thoughts are that a solid steel 500 pound unit would probably sound great. Obviously this is not viable but what is viable is putting the "weight" where it will provide the least energy loss. I wonder about these guitars that isolate the "neck" from the body for "tone".
I know I am opening a huge can of worms but maybe that can needs to be open. There are a lot of potential players out there who will never have access to a pedal steel because there are zero quality affordable simple instruments available.

Something to be noted about the cost of instruments:
While the virtues of simple instruments have been exemplified rather well in this post, the cost is probably not the driving factor in “access” as much misunderstanding and
frustration.

In 1965, a base model Emmons D10 was $1000 retail, in 2021 dollars this is over $8000.
This scale pricing continued throughout the next 20 years and by the 1970s they were selling them faster than the could make them. I understand wholesale discounts and back door deals, but as far as the public at large is concerned the retail cost represented reality. The same is true of classic Fenders and Gibsons; they were selling for a lot more money in real dollars than their modern reissues and counterparts, and they were selling more of them, especially when you consider per capita volume.

Human nature is such that people will find a way to obtain what they want if they feel it will provide them with what they want or need, however, you can hardly give away something that is perceived as complicated or frustrating. I think the industry has tripped over itself to make a better mousetrap rather than practical instruments.

[Paul Leoni]

It's ridiculous how many changes of direction the energy has to make before the string moves and everyone of them a source of problems. Ever wonder why the Telecaster is so resilient? Two guesses.

[Paul Leoni]

What would you guys think the minimum number of raises and lowers? Keeping in mind this would be the "Telecaster" of steel guitars. Nothing extra, all neccessary for yeomans work.

[Dave Mudgett]

Since everything affects everything and experimentation with all the different variables is, IMO, the only way to really tell what works and what doesn't, I don't think there's any way to answer the OP's question. As sophisticated as modeling of mechanical systems has become, I don't think it will be very useful in dealing with the small variances in design parameters that can lead to large differences in sound and playability. Speaking as a (mostly retired) theoretically-oriented science/engineering guy, I still argue that careful and well thought out experiment almost always trumps theory. Well thought out theory can be a good guide, but the proof is always in the making and final product.

There are a lot of potential players out there who will never have access to a pedal steel because there are zero quality affordable simple instruments available.

I disagree. Just a few of the most obvious examples:

http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/S10%20Jr.html

http://www.stageonesteelguitars.com/

https://hudsonsteelguitars.com/t/guitars

And there are more, but these are, for me, the standouts in the circa $1000-1200 category. If you don't think that's a bargain, compare that to a bloody 3+1 Maverick for $450 in 1973, which is what I found when I thought about taking up pedal steel back then. That is over $2800 in 2021 dollars. That was definitely enough to stall me out back then - hell, my first (used) car in that general time frame was $150.

If you're expecting a high-quality, brand new pedal steel for the price of a new Squier Strat, fuggedaboudit. There is no reason that the pricing of a quality pedal steel should remotely mimic that of cheap guitars cut out on CNC machines by large factories in Asia. I suppose it might be possible for someone to slap together a marginal marginal pedal steel with A and B pedals and maybe an E=>Eb lever using some type of ad-hoc changer, out of re-purposed cheap commodity parts, for $500-600. But I doubt that would help things much. I know a number of guitar players that got pretty discouraged trying to learn on a cruddy pedal steel.

What would you guys think the minimum number of raises and lowers? Keeping in mind this would be the "Telecaster" of steel guitars. Nothing extra, all neccessary for yeomans work.

To me, that is a false equivalence. A standard Telecater does everything any other 'normal' electric guitar will do, modulo a tremelo system. But I think a lot can be done with A&B pedals, plus E=>Eb and E=>F pedals. If you can slant accurately, then the typical A+F position inversions can be handled without the F lever. The Justice Jr is a 2-raise, 1-lower all-pull system that can do this inexpensively, and a lot more besides for not a lot more money.

[Per Berner]

I would go for an 8-string guitar with two pedals and three knee levers as a minimum. That would be the bottom 8 E9 strings, standard A and B pedals, horizontal levers raising and lowering the Es, and a vertical raising the high E to F# (replacing the C pedal plus offering a few advantages in conjunction with A+B). No ball bearings; bronze cross shaft bearings and maybe even a nut without rollers (made from some slippery material) to minimize loss of vibrations. Keyless, maybe. All shafts and levers mounted to a pair of aluminum rails attached to the endplates, not directly to the body – as few things as possible screwed to the body.

It would be compact and light and I think it might sound quite good.

[Ken Pippus]

Yup. Too many moving parts. Too many levers. Bad design. And OMG! Keyless tuning! Explains why this guy sounded so s****y.

Shame he didn’t just play a Bigsby. Or a Telecaster!



May be a little excess navel-gazing going on here.

[Chris Lucker]

It explains why he said the "Wagon" Wraparound was the best sounding pedal steel he ever played.

[Paul Leoni]

Yup. Too many moving parts. Too many levers. Bad design. And OMG! Keyless tuning! Explains why this guy sounded so s****y.

Shame he didn’t just play a Bigsby. Or a Telecaster!



May be a little excess navel-gazing going on here.

You can buy as many moving parts as you want. (-:
$12,000 guitars can sound very good.
The thing is this can be done with a lot more simplicity less parts and less cost. Then the instrument will find it's way into many more generations. Straight steel was at one point almost as ubiquitous as a guitar in early country bands. Not now. Expensive or finicky can be discouraging to new young players. God I miss the great pedal steel days. And I am a keyboard and a thumbpicking player for the most

[Paul Leoni]

Yep yep yep ....

I doubt most PS
That being said, when pedals began to be a thing it was paramount that the character of the steel not be lost in translation; tone was more important than the gadgets. At the time it was not considered to be a different instrument altogether, just an expansion of what already was. Nowadays, the majority of pedal people can’t play an open tuning at all, and many of the lap Steelers can’t or don’t play pedals. For one reason or another, the pedal steel has effectively became just the pedal guitar: a mechanical device that happens to make music too.

In short, the simpler and more direct a design can be made with high quality but basic materials, is almost the best bet for a winning musical instrument.