The E9th Myth

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 16 Jul 2006 9:47 pm

Well said, Mike.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 17 Jul 2006 12:43 am

I find it both amusing, and ironic, how you E9th players say you can sound like anything but country, yet so many of you strive for that elusive "Nashville" or "West Coast" or "Hughey" sound. Make up your minds fella's. I can't recall turning on the radio in my pickup. listing to a top 40 country station and hearing intricate Chalker type cords played on the E9th, to the likes of Honky Tonk Badonkadonk, or big and ick..Yet on the same token, if someone thinks our good friend Bobby Lee sounds like country on everything he plays..he needs a product called "Miracle Ear" look into it, they run commercials all the time. The word "Generalized" comes to mind. The sad reality is no ones' to blame but yourselfs. To make a point, years ago, you never heard Leon, or Pee Wee, or Speedy, or Bob White, or Jaoqueen {spelling} "Whine" the damn thing. Strange how now, you want to prove after so many years of doing just that, that actually you can play without whining...eee gads..it's no wonder someone reading this thread, who does not play steel might be confused, because i am! Even our resident forum Tuning guru, and fellow Michigander Al Marcus admits that it would take a few changes to the standard E9th tuning to make it universal for all styles of music, and i agree. Not only is Randy, and Mike P doing wonderful things with the E9th tuning. But for years one of my top 3 steel guitar heros Wally Murphy, has been taking the E9th tuning to a higher level. And we have discussed this in the past. It has to be special, before i will sit through 45 minutes of "another E9th Player". And Mr Cox, as much as i admire you, and your wifes playing, and the fact that you are playing and help building the finest "Keyed" steel guitar in the world...if you think that we don't need other tunings, or those experimenting with other tunings, then shame shame shame sir... Hal Rug experimented with different tunings. I would think that an E9th player would want to spend more time expanding the tuning, instead of limiting it. Take Zane Beck, and the great Julian Tharp. Their base was E9th, just listen to those masters and learn fella's. I don't care if it's E9th with an added 6th..or E6th with an added 9th..whatever... but i would suggest history dictates. I can listen to Tharpe, or Zane, or Red Rhodes..or some of the other "Almost E9th" type guys long before the stereotyped "Super Pickers" of today...so when you guys get it all sorted out, what it is you are trying to put across..would let us fella's that play that not needed "Other Tuning" with and without pedals know? and i would like to see someone walk up to doug, buddy, herby, buddyC and say..oh by the way..you know you don't actually need that old C6th tuning, we are doing all that old crap on the E9th haven't ya heard? I play C6th..and wouldn't change for the world...if you whine..or don't whine....keep on keepin' on.....just be sure to let the "rest" of us know what you decide!

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 17 Jul 2006 4:38 am

George,

FYI, you've mistaken John Cox of Bryan, TX with Johnny Cox of Eustace, TX. Both Texans, both steel players, but not the same guy.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 17 Jul 2006 6:01 am

Hey Mike P...I thought that might get a response from you...Re you "animal kingdom" analogy: I have found, through years of observation and practice, that Aardvarks, Zebras, and hairy legged stringed instrument pickers all tend to congregate (is that like Add?), but more importantly, they tend to multiply...some kind of built in genetic requirement, particularly with the pickers.

To other than MP...E9 may be the open tuning on the 10 string, but there is also the A6, B6 and other available as keys on the same fret (even more so on the Universal "E9", apparently E9 does not always = E9. Quite often tunes are started and ended on the A6, or B6 musical neck. If you ask the picker what tuning he/she played the tune in you would probably be told E9. ?????

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 17 Jul 2006 6:29 am

Thanks Jeff.....sorry 'bout that. I kinda thought {our} Johnny Cox could pick anything with strings he was a mind to, his wonderful wife as well. I have heard him play C6th. God bless ya all, great informative thread here. I have learned alot from all your postings. Thank's for caring and sharing everyone.

Joseph Meditz · Post by **Joseph Meditz** » 17 Jul 2006 7:49 am

That whining PSG on country music is what got me hooked on this instrument. And while I do practice and enjoy playing country on the PSG, when I noodle around on my own I play some improbable phrases, e.g., Pomp and Circumstance Liebesfreud and Quando men vo.
And so I agree with b0b in that I do not feel particularly limited by E9th tuning.

That said, in my opinion, I don't think the important thing is whether you can play a particular piece on PSG, the important thing is whether you should. Let me illustrate.

Do you recall (in Fantasia?) Stokowski conducting an orchestral transcription of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dm? Why did he do this? It doesn't sound better than when played on organ. It did not add anything.

In contrast, the famous Spanish "guitar" piece "Leyenda" by Isaac Albeniz was originally written for piano. But it sounds great on guitar. Although not written for guitar, it is, nevertheless, the quintessential Spanish guitar piece.

Winnie Winston's lovely arrangement of Londonderry Air falls into this latter category. It is on E9th and doesn't sound like country to me. And yet, it is hard to imagine it sounding better on any other instrument than PSG.

Joe

[This message was edited by Joseph Meditz on 17 July 2006 at 08:59 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 17 Jul 2006 8:00 am

Basically, this topic is about the age-old question for musicians, and that is, whether you will follow your own path (to poverty), or whether you will compromise and play commercial music and make a living for your famly!

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Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 17 Jul 2006 8:35 am

...the famous Spanish "guitar" piece "Leyenda" by Isaac Albeniz was originally written for piano. But it sounds great on guitar. Although not written for guitar, it is, nevertheless, the quintessential Spanish guitar piece.

It sounds pretty good on steel too. My version is already recorded, but not yet mixed.

BTW the piece has 2 names. It is also called "Asturias."

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Jul 2006 9:55 am

A hallmark of great music is that it holds up well on any instrument.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 17 Jul 2006 1:58 pm

A hallmark of great music is that it holds up well on any instrument.

even b***o.

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Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 17 Jul 2006 7:43 pm

Al, adding a C# string between the 4th and 5th strings was what Buddy Emmons did on his 12-string back when he did the "rainbow" album, and he certainly showed the potential of it!
Gene, to second Randy Beavers' response to your question about "Houston", at a steel jam in 1984 Buddy showed a group of us how he played the licks on "Houston" on E9th, including a dandy bar slant at the modulation.
I have two reactions to what various people have said in this thread.
On the one hand, I am heartily of the opinion that E9th pedal steel is, quite simply, a musical instrument, with, like any other instrument, its own unique potentials and limitations. And players are in a constant process of discovering the potentials and limitations. And it's absurd to say PSG, or any instrument, "should" only be used in any particular way.
On the other hand, I can’t understand the attitude, not uncommon, of those who say “If the instrument continues only to be used in such-and-such a way, the instrument will die out.” Why? Music is about the expression and communication of thoughts and feelings. Nobody says “If people continue to use only the words that currently exist, the language will die out.”

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 17 Jul 2006 7:58 pm

Music is about the expression and communication of thoughts and feelings. Nobody says “If people continue to use only the words that currently exist, the language will die out.”

Well, probably a better way to make the analogy is to say: "If people keep using words to say the same things, eventually people will stop reading and writing will die out for lack of interest." It's not that you need to keep inventing new "words" but that you need to use them to say something different to avoid becoming a period piece. Now, one can argue that classical music has, for this reason, become a "period piece" and, indeed, it struggles for an audience more and more each year. And, like it or not, that's why the suits have added a strong dose of rock to your country music.[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 17 July 2006 at 09:20 PM.]

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 17 Jul 2006 9:33 pm

With all due respect, what meaning does the phrase "period piece" really have? When I listen to a Beethoven sonata, a Charlie Parker solo or a Hank Williams recording it reaches me because of what it IS, right now. If someone were to create the identical music live in front of me, it would still be reaching me because of what it IS, right now. What's the difference? Why invalidate the latter by hanging a label, "period piece", on it? What the suits do for purposes of making money is, to me, irrelevant. Not to say that contemporary music is by definition invalid, any more than old music is. New or old, if it's good, it's good!

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 17 Jul 2006 10:12 pm

Mike,
I agree with alot of what you said. But not the part about me being "short sighted and narrow minded."

I didn't say that the steel was "strickly for playing country." I said that I thought it was "intended" to play country. Why shouldn't I think that? Think about it. Didn't Buddy Emmons "invent" the push/pull? I was told that he did. I read here on the forum that Lloyd Green and Peat Drake each Added a "pull" that we still use today. Wasn't it country music that put these musicians "on the map"? You have the wrong impression of me and it's my fault. My post was short and to the point. I have given other music a "chance", but I'll admitt a slim one.

I think it's very impressive how Buddy Emmons and John Hughey can "zip" through the chords of a jazz tune. A few times I saw Stevie Ray Vaughn on T.V. and was very impressed at how He "blistered" the neck. I've watched intently as a classical violinist or piano player takes full command of their instrument. The reason I soon loose instrest in this kind of music is not because it's "bad music". It's because it's not what I like. I like country. And I don't think I'm bringing "harm" to the steel for playing only country. Is it my fault that I'd rather have chicken fried than boiled"?

I never would have thought that someone could come on the STEEL GUITAR forum and get flamed ("short sighted and narrow minded") for liking and playing only country music.

I hope I have not offended you, Mike. In any way.

Mitch

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 18 Jul 2006 3:46 am

Brint, I agree with you - on a personal level. If it's good and I like it, I'll keep listening to it. But I'm referring to a broader, societal level, over decades, as the generations change. Popular culture has an insatiable need for something "new", and if you don't give it to them, they lose interest and spend their money on something else. Orchestras are struggling all over the country (world?) and Hag and Jones can't buy a record deal.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 18 Jul 2006 4:34 am

On 'West Side Story,' Mike P. has a couple of tunes that have typical 'country' figures--typically, 'Maria' and 'One Hand, One Heart.' These are like homages to the traditional sound, and would make the piece, if the whole arrangement weren't so good.
Sure, it's there, but the whole of the album is something else. It's a beautiful work.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 18 Jul 2006 4:58 am

I have great respect for guys like Mitch who stay true to what they like and believe in, and play country because that's WHO they are.

I also have great respect for guys who respect the fact that there are players who DON'T play country or who mix country and other styles, because that's who THEY are.

The folks I write off are the ones who say "pedal steel is only for country, and should be used for nothing else" - or guys who say "pedal steel has been used enough in country, and country sucks".

It's ALL good. If you like playing country, great. If you like playing salsa on steel, great. the important thing IMO is to not pigeonhole the guitar, open up the applications and promote the INSTRUMENT, not a single style.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 Jul 2006 6:15 am

God bless you, Mitch. I think all of us hope the wellspring of country steel guitar never dries up, and instead flourishes. That's what built the instrument to what it is today. People who want to spread the instrument into other genres (which includes me) just need to keep working hard at it. Someone will have to become a reknowned virtuoso in a new genre before people in that genre will accept it (I'm already too old for that, so don't hold your breath on my account).

The standard E9 pedal steel copedant can work in many genres, because country music has roots in European folk music, which is also part of the roots of classical, jazz, blues and rock. It is true that E9 has been finely tuned to the needs of country, and that makes country the most natural thing to play on E9. Other genres may need to drop some things and add some things. Moving the D to a lever, and adding three additional low notes of the E chord really opened up the E9/B6 uni for me to rock, blues, jazz and classical music, and made it easy to get away from whinieness. The core strings, pedals and levers (E9 open chord plus scale notes on strings 1 and 2, ABC pedals, E raise and lower levers) work solidly for all genres. It's only necessary to alter a couple or few personal pedals or levers to be able to play anything you want.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Jul 2006 6:23 am

The folks I write off are the ones who say "pedal steel is only for country, and should be used for nothing else"...

I started this topic because someone claimed that E9th is only for country, and should be used for nothing else.

Some people believe that we have two necks so that we can play both kinds of music: Country and Western.

The topic here is not whether pedal steel is suitable for different styles of music. It's whether E9th can be used when the country sound is inappropriate. Is "whiney" an inherent characteristic of the E9th (and not the C6th), or is it a matter of how the player approaches his music?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
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Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 18 Jul 2006 6:33 am

I think we should all stop whining and just play the dam thing...

let somebody else worry about their perception of it.

grumble, grumble

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 18 Jul 2006 7:41 am

Mitch, your post didn’t offend me, and I hope mine didn’t offend you.

But I’d like to tell you about an incident that DID offend me. It was the first time Alvino Rey played at the convention. (For those reading this who are newbies, or who are not up in our instrument’s history, Rey is believed by some to be the inventor of the pedal steel guitar, although there is some question about it. He was certainly one of it’s earliest players, and regardless of whether or not he was the actual inventor, he is considered to be the father of the instrument.)

Rey was not a country player. He played big band swing. So when he appeared, he brought with him a 17 piece big band, and played swing music from the 30s.

Now generally speaking, that’s not the kind of music I usually enjoy. Nevertheless, I was thrilled to be able to hear Rey perform. This was after all the man who (I believe) invented the pedal steel guitar.

Incredibly, throughout his performance, I heard people in the audience complaining. “Who is this guy?” “Why is he here?” “Why isn’t he playing country?” “I didn’t come hear to hear this s--t, I want to hear country.” etc.

I was appalled and offended at the disrespect shown Rey. This is the guy who got the whole thing going in the first place. He deserved to be honored, but instead was treated like an unwelcome relative the family couldn’t avoid inviting to the reunion.

Frankly, I don’t understand people who say they only like one kind of music (regardless of genre) and refuse to listen to everything else. As I said earlier, there are great musicians in every genre, and confining your listening to one thing and one thing only deprives you of the pleasure of hearing a lot of wonderful stuff.

Still, everybody is entitled to his or her individual tastes. And nobody has the right to judge somebody else’s.

Before I go any further I want to address this idea that the steel guitar, or that the E9 tuning was intended for country. Earlier I mentioned Alvino Rey. The man who is known as the father of the pedal steel guitar, the man who possibly invented the thing, did not play country music at all. As I mentioned, he played big band swing. Beyond that, I believe that when people like Buddy and Lloyd and Jimmy Crawford invented or discovered things like the E to F raise, they were thinking of expanding the harmonic possibilities of the instrument.

But leaving all that aside, my real problem is the perception on the part of so may people that the steel guitar is strictly a country instrument, and that’s the only thing it can do, and that it’s not only confined to country music, it’s further confined to the role of supporting a vocalist and cannot be a featured solo instrument.

When I attempted to shop my CD to different record companies, I was told over and over again that there is no market for pedal steel guitar music. I was even told by Steve Fischel, who is himself a fine pedal steel guitarist, who was head of A&R at Vanguard records at the time, that he had orders from his superiors that he was not to sign ANY pedal steel guitarists to the label. Not even Buddy Emmons.

My personal goal is to bring the pedal steel guitar to the attention of the classical music audience, and show them how beautiful and expressive it is. I eventually want to be a concert artist within that genre, playing the steel with symphony orchestras around the world.

I’m working very hard to fulfill these goals, but it’s an uphill battle. I have to fight the bigotry and prejudice that surrounds our instrument, the stereotyping of it that Tom Bradshaw wrote about 30 years ago.

Comments like “The steel guitar is a country instrument. That’s what it does and that’s what it’s for,” only make my task all the more difficult.

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Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 18 Jul 2006 7:55 am

Mike

It's my guess that most of the prejudice in the classical music world will not be against pedal steel guitar in particular, but amplified instruments in general.

RR

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 18 Jul 2006 8:57 am

Roger, There's a certain amount of truth in what you say, but things are opening up and attitudes about amplification are changing somewhat. Artists like Wendy Carlos and Tomita had had an impact, and some of todays composers are writing for synths and/or electic guitars, Recently I attended a concert which included a pice written for a woodwind MIDI controler.

But even though some people's attitudes about amplfication are changing, my experience is that in many cases, that hasn't carried over to the steel.

I've run into people who regard the steel as a musical toy, more or less on the level as a comb and tissue paper, and only fit for country music, which they consider little more than meaningless noise.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 18 July 2006 at 09:58 AM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 18 Jul 2006 9:08 am

I have heard the exact same idiocy Mike refers to at a convention whenever players like Doug Jernigan or John Hughey switched on their C6th necks..."Ah wish he'd stay on the E9th neck and keep off that *ø??åµ˜ jazz neck!"

These yahoos were sitting in back of me, reeking of alcohol and the low hum of ignorance. IMHO.

I'm all for the E9th neck and I love the heritage of traditional American music (not to mention a few other countries as well). It really is a drag that people who wave the flag for one kind of music feel that everything else should be shot.

To answer b0b: I think the true musician who is not just a steel guitar operator, but a true musician who happens to play steel guitar, can play just about anything on the E9th tuning. Some (many?) are gonna prefer the C6 for certain things. I say "Viva La Differance"! I happen to really enjoy what is unique to each tuning-what each neck offers in terms of note combinations-and they are different from neck to neck! I suspect the great players (of whom I am not one) who haven't gone universal do too. (Not that i have anything against universal, before I get flamed!)

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[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 July 2006 at 10:11 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Jul 2006 9:11 am

It's my guess that most of the prejudice in the classical music world will not be against pedal steel guitar in particular, but amplified instruments in general.

I saw Kronos Quartet a couple of years ago. They were amplified, and each performer wore a headset and had his/her own 4-channel mixer. I'm sure that a competent pedal steel guitarist would have been welcome on that stage. They added an accordian player for two or three selections, and he was amplified as well.

I don't believe that there is a prejudice against amplification in classical music today, as long as it's done well. But this is way off topic, and has nothing to do with the subject of the E9th copedent and its relationship to various styles of music.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 18 July 2006 at 10:13 AM.]