The E9th Myth

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Jul 2006 8:54 pm

b0b, going back to your original post:

"The E9th contains an incredibly diverse wealth of note combinations, transitions and chord positions. It's actually hard to come up with parts within its range that are not playable on the E9th.

I believe that any genre of music can be played correctly on an E9th pedal steel."

That may very well be true. However, the wealth of instructional materials along with the majority of the posts on this forum (including ones in this thread - like the one listing the country tunes/sounds that drew the player to the instrument and that anything else essentially repels him - show that the instrument is stuck in a country rut.

To be sure, there are creative players outside that rut. But for a new player...and especially a new player with NO musical background....just where does that player go to learn the non-country music that can be played using an E9 tuning? Where are the books, videos...teachers?

For the most part, there AREN'T any. So if you want to dispel the "E9 myth" , do something FOR the players who want to move (or more importantly, START) outside it - write a book, form a worldwide consortium of teachers who will teach 100% non-country E9-tuning pedal steel guitar, do anything to prove that the myth isn't the truth.

I think it's the truth. And it will be until the tools are developed to make other styles more accessible to inexperienced players.

Examples - keyboards; guitar; bass; drums; tenor sax - all standard-tuned for the most part (drums being somewhat n/a as far as tuning...but not really): for each of those you can find a wealth of materials and teachers in all sorts of styles.

What do you find with E9 pedal steel? country teachers, country books, country videos.....

Not to beat a dead horse, but if you're going to claim that E9 isn't pigeonholed as stylistically limited, it takes a LOT more than an isolated sprinkling of example tunes by experienced players to prove the point.

Yes, a few isolated examples of non-country E9 playing do exist. But the overwhelming majority of E9 playing sounds country-ish, even when intended as something else. And there are many, many players who would not have it any other way, either.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 16 July 2006 at 12:24 AM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 15 Jul 2006 9:01 pm

One of the early sounds that I recall that sounded like one thing, but; in reality was something else was when Paul Franklin played on Geo. Strait's “All My Ex's”! It sounded like C6th, but; in reality it was on the E9th.! He did it that way, just to show that it could be done! _ _ _ [07/21/06 EDIT:] Due to the outcome of another post, I am forced (under duress) to withdraw all of the above statements. It has been pointed out that for all these years, I've been living under a misprehaprehention! Dah! I'm outta here now!

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[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 20 July 2006 at 11:34 PM.][This message was edited by John Bechtel on 20 July 2006 at 11:35 PM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 15 Jul 2006 9:12 pm

Jim S, you're missing an essential point. A C CHORD IS A C CHORD IS A C CHORD, regardless of genre. It doesn't matter what kind of music the instruction books use, as long as they teach you how to play.

I will never in my entire life, perform Red River Valley from Winnie's book. But I was able to directly apply the knowledge of the instrument I learned from Red River valley to Jimi Hendrix's "Little Wing" which is part of my repetoire.

If the lamest song in the world teaches you a new chord or scale position, it's worth learning, not for it's own sake, but for the knowledge it provides that you can then apply to something else.

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jul 2006 9:41 pm

Jim Sliff wrote:

Examples - keyboards; guitar; bass; drums; tenor sax - all standard-tuned for the most part (drums being somewhat n/a as far as tuning...but not really): for each of those you can find a wealth of materials and teachers in all sorts of styles.

Yeah? Try finding a book of country drum parts. There aren't any!

In another post, you said that my E9th Hawaiian, rock and jazz tunes all sounded country to you. That basically disqualifies me from writing any instructional material that you would consider acceptable.

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Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Jul 2006 9:46 pm

Mike, that's really another discussion. I was talking about b0b's orginal post where he says it's a myth that the E9 tuning makes things sound country. My point was made earlier in a post that was deleted referring to some sound samples - I didn't know that post and the one preceding it were gone...but:

"But to say that the E9th is "for country only" discredits a large body of excellent E9th performances in other genres. It's a myth, and it's simply not true."

That statements is predicated on a "large body of excellent E9 performances in other genres" that is totally dwarfed by the overwhelming amount of E9-country material, and the educational materials that go with it.

My point being - reality check: it's a "small body of excellent E9 peformances in other genres". It's a TINY fraction of the overall output. And the examples b0b himself posted (now deleted) sounded quite country to me.

E9 sounds country for the most part because that's how 99% of the players play it. And when those 99% try to play other stuff, they STILL sound country. The 1% who go other directions are admirable in their efforts. But to dispel the "myth", you have to broaden the generally-available horizons for new players, who will otherwise almost assuredly fall in the 99% range and end up sounding country whether playing Skip to my Lou, Lullaby of Birdland or Smoke on Water....

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 15 Jul 2006 10:01 pm

"....we'd only need one tuning."

I think we're pretty close to that being the case. If I had to make a choice right now, I'd have no hesitation in abandoning C6th. With my LKV raising the 6th (G# to A#) along with the more common knees and pedals, I think I have all I need, apart from a little more low-end range, so.....

....I'm very close to seriously considering an extended E9 instead of my D10s. It feels like a big step, but maybe it's not as big as I think it is....

RR

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jul 2006 10:15 pm

Nothing was deleted. I posted those tracks in a different topic, before I started this one.

Here they are again, for reference. These are the E9th tracks that sound country to Jim Sliff. I wonder how many Forum members agree with him:

Hawaiian

rock

jazz[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 15 July 2006 at 11:21 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Jul 2006 11:41 pm

My mistake b0b - I thought they were in this thread.

Mike - "A C CHORD IS A C CHORD IS A C CHORD, regardless of genre." But if we're talking about playing a C chord on an E9 guitar; and you get to it via a bar at the 3rd fret and movement of the A&B pedals...it's going to sound country IMO. If I recall correctly, Jeff Newman had a course dealing ONLY with those two pedals. Does that teach you the versatility and wide-ranging styles of the instrument - or teach you how to play country style on the instrument?

Another post mentioned that there are no country drum lessons. I beg to differ - see the following short list of online resources, video and teacher (there were dozens to choose from - I just grabbed three links):
http://www.drumsdatabase.com/trainbeat.htm
http://www.dannybritt.com/lessons.htm
http://theband.hiof.no/videos/on_drums_drumming.html

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 16 Jul 2006 4:00 am

Good thread, Bobby. And a very good example of not playing country-fied on the E9 is Hank Corwin's expertise and musical knowledge.
I had the extreme pleasure of having Hank in my home recently for a full day of playing with some of my friends. Hank's song selection spanned the jazz gauntlet from "Over The Rainbow" to "Take Five" and many more-and with all the really big chord sounds of Oscar Peterson. I was hearing "Chalker voicings" all day long and was in absolute hog-heaven being that close and able to watch and hear a musician who really knows music and how to put his knowledge of theory to work. Never did hear a "generic E9" sound from his ten string , three pedals, four knee lever set up until someone requested a country song. (His set up is E9 basic with the exception that he tunes his second string to C# and then pulls it up). All my friends here were, and still are, amazed and are looking forward to Hank's show here in Gulfport at our Deep South Steel Guitar event coming up Aug. 2nd. We are most fortunate. I discovered I do not need all these strings anymore. Thanks Hank.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 16 Jul 2006 4:12 am

John wrote:

One of the early sounds that I recall that sounded like one thing, but; in reality was something else was when Paul Franklin played on Geo. Strait's “All My Ex's”! It sounded like C6th, but; in reality it was on the E9th.! He did it that way, just to show that it could be done!

I'm pretty sure Paul did the recording on C6th. I'm sure he can play the exact same thing on his E9th if he choses to. I've heard him play things on his C6th that sounded like E9th. Paul knows no boundaries tuning wise! He plays music on both necks, not just steel guitar.

Jim, the instruction issue is a whole new can of worms. I've done a fair amount of teaching and have seen what I believe to be a major problem. The majority of students think they can skip a huge part of the learning process, mainly theory, and still be able to play what they hear someone like Paul play. I've had students actually say "I don't want to be bothered with all this theory. Just show me how to play the lick." Or how about the old saying, when asked if they read music, "Not enough to hurt my playing." That should be a joke not a statement, however some people use it as their motto.

For me the reason I don't teach at the present time, the extra time I have that I can spend behind my guitar, I choose to learn myself and try to develop into a better player. Yep, it's all about me at this point! But this is what I enjoy doing and if I don't continue to enjoy it, I'll quit.

Knowledge is the key, but can't end with just book learning. I've also met people who were brilliant when it came to theory but couldn't play you a C major scale. They just didn't spend time behind their instrument to develop what they knew mentally. To play this or any instrument, you have to be both the engineer and the craftsman.

Keep this in mind when you hear someone like Paul play, everything you hear him play, that information is available to each of us through numerous courses from Jamey Aebersold, George Russell, Pat Martino, etc. All we have to do is dig in and study it, then learn to apply it to our instrument. It does us no good to simply talk about it. Maybe the Nike slogan says it all.

Paul, forgive me for using you as the example, but it goes with the territory. [This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 16 July 2006 at 07:09 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Jul 2006 4:26 am

...the instrument is stuck in a country rut.

Well, I guess that you could sorta say that's because country music is the only style that consistently embraces the PSG. Other genres may feature it occasionally, but it's just not that popular in them. Since most of what people have heard PSG featured in is country music, it's become pidgeon-holed as a country instrument.

Now, you may not like that...but that's the way it is, nonetheless. (Don't shoot the messenger!) "Association happens". That's why the banjo is considered a bluegrass instrument, and the bagpipes are considered a Scottish music instrument. Quite recently, it seems, even Hawaiian music is eschewing the steel guitar! I taped a 1-hour "Hawaiian Music" special last year, only to discover the sponsers didn't want to hear any steel guitar. An hour of "Hawaiian" music...and no steel guitar??? That's like hearing an hour of rock and roll music with no electric guiutar!!! It seems that some idiots (businessmen, not Hawaiians) decided that Hawaiian music should go back to it's roots, and feature slack-key guitar and baritone uke and tribal singing instead of steel guitar. No doubt this decision is driven by the same bozo mentality that keeps steel guitar music to a minimum in other types of music, too. Putting steel up-front in anything is akin to putting all your money in a passbook savings account. There's a few old traditionalists that do it, but the majority considers them "out-of-step" with current reality.

Yep, we're musical outcasts, plain and simple. I sorta like that fact...it gives me identity!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 July 2006 at 05:30 AM.][This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 July 2006 at 05:32 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 16 Jul 2006 4:44 am

A small amount of Mike's example is whiney, and he also uses the trick of playing a lot of single-note stuff.

With all due respect, Donny, I'm not sure if that's a "trick" that Mike is using (to hide his bumpkin nature?), or if he's just playing the notes that Claude Debussy wrote....

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Jul 2006 5:16 am

You could have something there David!

Of course, it could also be that I'm the only one that plays chords in a piece where the composer called for just a single-note melody.

Take my word on this. If Claude had a' heard a pedal steel, he'd a scored some A&B stuff in there!

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 16 Jul 2006 5:17 am

.....and just as a matter of curiosity, who knows which tuning was used on "Houston"?

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Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 16 Jul 2006 5:24 am

E9th.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 16 Jul 2006 6:52 am

Donny - you're right, of course. but as more pople gravitate to steel, especially with the fairly wide exposure Robert Randolph is getting, things may need to change. The "pigeon-hole" is breaking down in the public eye, and I've heard high school kids at church (where there's a RR poster on the wall in the teen room) say they want to learn PSG but can't find instruments (which is the usual case around L.A. - no stores in the metro area seem to carry even one) and the books they see in music stores are all full of country stuff.

I've sent a few of them here, but warned them in advance that inquiring about learning rock or blues pedal steel playing will get them a lot of "you have to learn country first" or "that's not what it's for" answers, along with a few valuable tips - and some great friends.

Randy, I totally agree about the theory issue. Even after a zillion years of guitar and bass playing my theory background is basically nil, and while a few players are notable exceptions I think you HAVE to learn a decent amount of theory to wrestle this beast. Interestingly, though, I'm seeing more 6-string guitar teachers incorporating theory into their lessons, which was almost unheard of except in the jazz and classical arenas even 3-4 years ago.

Oh - and Donny, I'm Hawaiian. I'm sure the situation was a desire for traditional Hawaiian music in that situation, which would include chants, uke, and slack-key guitar (sometimes played with a paper sack over the left hand so as not to expose secret family tunings - seriously!). Steel guitar was incorporated MUCH later and is not considered a traditional instrument by most traditional Hawaiian musicians. Non-Hawaiians think it's a huge part of the music - but to players of real Hawaiian music it's as "real" as Don Ho, and strictly a Haole tourist thing.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 16 Jul 2006 7:04 am

I come from way back when the only time this one tuned his six string A to E was to play Steel Guitar Rag.

Then I got the only Pedal Steel that Vega Corp (of Boston) ever made...four pedals ala the MultiChord, and the ElectroHarp. This allowed having the I, IV, V musical necks/tunings on a single physical neck, and move between them as desired.

MIKE P...here I will take exception to your broad brush comment about a C chord = a C chord etc.. I will go so far as to say that a C note does not even equal a C note. When it is written as a fly spec(s) at a particular place on a piece of music paper the "note" has no personality outside of it's context. When played on different strings on the PSG, it's harmonic content varies giving it a completely different sound at each location. Now enlarge that single note to a C chord played at different locations within a given tuning, or as is possible with the PSG (particularly the Universal tunings), at many different locations and inversions, and all these C chords sound differently. A good reason for different tunings. It can also be used to make "whiney" go away or stay.

Someone mentioned that It was nice to have 2nds available...agreed...dang nice for a lot of the triplets used in a variety of musical styles without having to move the bar to get them.

It seems to be common to change the D# string in E9 to a C#, and in some cases to use the middle E9 D as a C# and pull it to a D. I do similar things on my 14 string Uni, plus add a C# as string 12. I still think in terms of musical necks and physical necks as opposed to string bends.

Are all the notes there on E9...yes, but not necessarily where you want them...hence pedals et al. One would like to be able to find a given note on any string, and surrounded by other notes/strings that provide common chords or note groupings with compatible harmonic content. Pedals/levers provide this capability. If one decides to follow Nashville/Bakersfield stereotypical moves on an E9 tuning, they will get the Nashville/Bakersfield sounds.

A 6th based tuning will give a different overall sound than a 7th based tuning...they can be made to sound like each other within the capability of the player, but some tunes lay (no, not eggs) better on a given tuning.

E9 is indeed versatile...much more so than most pickers use, but if one is playing top 40 Nashville, one needs to sound a bit like the record, and that means coping the same moves to a large degree.

If one goes to many of the available chords and inversions that ARE available on the E9 ten string, they may have to tolerate exceptions re there pet method of tuning. If they are using some version of JI (tweak tuning), they are limiting their choices to some degree re locations if several strings at a time are to be played.

E9 has a lot more than it is commonly used for, but is not the be all/end all of tuning structure. There are tuning/setups that provide far more possibilities than the standard E9...but then, who needs them?

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 16 Jul 2006 9:12 am

I will go so far as to say that a C note does not even equal a C note.

Uh oh....

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 16 Jul 2006 9:16 am

Charlie, I interpret his comment as pointing out that C notes played on different strings, or on different instruments, vary in harmonic content; also, the note can sound different on pedal steel depending on how you arrive at it - pulling up, lowering down, sliding up or down or starting right on the note all seem to end up with slightly different string vibrations when the "mechanics" stop moving.

Doesn't seem like any "Uh-oh" content.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Jul 2006 10:31 am

...it's a huge part of the music - but to players of real Hawaiian music it's as "real" as Don Ho...

Wow! Even the people that invented the cottin' pickin' instrument are ashamed of it!

That's a shame...a durn shame.

"The mind boggles!"

I have records going back to the late-teens and early-twenties. Those are 78-RPM...(stands for "Real Purty Music"). That's 85-90 years ago (even before the electric guitar), and Hawaiian-steel guitar was even then a staple in Hawaiian music, so I'd hardly call steel guitar a "new addition" to the genre. Before that, well, none of us were there, and they didn't have phonograph recordings, so it's hard to argue about what went on, or what people played. For all we know, pedal steel may be a forgotten technology, brought back to life almost two thousand years later, like concrete was.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 16 Jul 2006 2:57 pm

Both China and Japan have had string bending instruments for a very long time. No bar, but the strings were bent behind the nut so to speak, by the fingers of the left hand.

In this country (USA), in Appalachia, there was a thing called a "Wall Harp". two nails were driven into the porch wall and a wire was strung between them. The "changes" in pitch of the string was controlled by twisting a rock, or tool under the string by one of the nails...much like tightening a broom handle on a wash tub bass. Further "whine" was added by using a bottle neck in the right hand (actually, in either hand). Hey Zeke...tune that porch to E9!

Donny...are you suggesting a concrete body?[This message was edited by ed packard on 16 July 2006 at 04:15 PM.]

smike · Post by **smike** » 16 Jul 2006 7:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>member expressed the opinion that playing any kind of music on the E9th will make it sound "country"</BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, like that famous country band 'pink floyd'...

and mr. country, stevie wonder

and sting, and joni mitchell and and and and and...

pedal steels don't play country music, steel players play country licks... or not.

it's not what you got, but how you use it.

bruce

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 16 Jul 2006 8:40 pm

smike - Stevie wonder, if I recall correctly, used Sneaky Pete on pedal steel. No E9 tuning there. And David Gilmour also played 8-string Fender pedal steels in pictures I've seen - doubtful that he used E9, although I could be wrong.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 16 Jul 2006 9:43 pm

I have several comments.
1- Ed Packard, If I’m correctly interpreting your comment, you’re saying that adding 2+2 aardvarks is not the same as adding 2=2 zebras.

Of course, aardvarks and zebras are totally different animals, but the addition process is the same. My comment about a C chord being a C chord (I should have specified C major chord) has to do with the fact that the chord always contains the notes C, E, and G, and is always the dominant of an F chord, no matter what style of music is being played.

Jim S, you made a very important distinction on your second post on the subject. The C chord will sound country of you start off with a G chord or a G suspended and mash the pedals. But if you get into position prior to picking the strings, and just play the chord without sliding the bar or mashing the pedals it’s just a chord. It may sound whiney or not depending on your tone, but there’s nothing specifically country sounding about the chord itself. What makes it country sounding (or not) is the way it’s approached, and the context in which it’s used.

Donny, playing single lines is not a trick. Horn players do it all the time. It is merely another technique, and I might add, one that I’m doing more and more. The steel is typically played by griping several strings at once, but that too is just A technique, not THE technique. Listen to Curly Chalker’s version of “Summertime” on the “Giants of Swing” album, or any of Reece’s work, or “ Mardi Gras’ from Buddy’s live recording from the convention for examples of single string work.

Finally. Mitch. I think that with your “If it ain’t country it ain’t music” attitude, you are denying yourself the pleasure of discovering and hearing a lot of wonderful music. There have been brilliant musicians in every genre who have created great works of musical art. Mozart, Coltrane, The Beatles, etc. I think that to arbitrarily say “These people don’t play country therefore I refuse to even listen once and check you what they did.” Is incredibly short sighted and narrow-minded.

Be that as it may, you have the right to your subjective tastes.

More important when you say that the steel is strictly for playing country you are harming our instrument, and holding back it’s progress.

Back in the 1980s, I walked into a jazz radio station with an armful of steel guitar jazz recordings. I told the program director I’d donate them to the station if he’d occasionally play something from one of them on the air. He condescendingly told me that the station didn’t play country and western records. I pointed out that these were jazz records, and he said I was wrong, that jazz can’t be played on a pedal steel guitar. He refused to discuss the matter.

On a more personal level, not everybody likes my recordings, which is to be expected. But 2 college music teachers and a very well known jazz guitarist refused to even listen to my Firebird Suite CD because they “knew” without hearing it, that was some sort or terrible country interpretation of the music. It’s pedal steel, therefore it HAS to be country, and it couldn’t possibly be any good.

But I can’t blame all these people for believing what they do. It’s not their fault. The only steel guitar playing they have ever heard is the stuff on country records. I blame players who can’t see past “The Way To Survive.”

If the steel guitar is to survive, it has to grow. Traditional country music has it’s place, but if everybody stays in that place, our instrument will surely be forgotten in years to come.

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Jul 2006 9:46 pm

B.J. Cole is a good example of a top E9th player who doesn't play much country.

Sneaky Pete proved that you didn't need the E9th to play country sounding licks. That's sort of the flip side of the E9th myth: the notion that you must use E9th if you want to sound country.[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 16 July 2006 at 10:48 PM.]