The E9th Myth

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 14 Jul 2006 10:22 pm

Years ago I believe players actually thought everything on the E9th had been played. But here in 2006, anything's possible. There's so many different players playing some many different styles until it's unreal. Information is so readily available, until a player on the west coast can know what a player on the east coast is doing by simply turning on the internet. It may be a myth with some people about the E9th tuning but I don't believe and never have believed it's a myth. Personally, I believe it's a personal thing. In other words, it's not the guitar or the tuning. It's the player and how far he/she wants to go and in what direction. As long as a player adapts to change, then they will not be limited to what they can or choose to play. Those who refuse to change or adapt to new things, will eventually still be on square one ten years from now, which is where they started ten years ago, so to speak. Just my .02 here! Good topic!

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 14 Jul 2006 10:25 pm

Here are the reasons I bought my first petal steel guitar 8 yrs ago:
Together Again-Tom brumley
Lost in the feeling-John Hughey
Farewell Party-Lloyd green
When did you stop loving me-Buddy Emmons
Your cheatin' heart-Don Helms
Too cold at home-Paul Franklin jr.
To me, that's what the psg is intended to do. That's what I like. That's what I play. If anything other than this kind of music is being played,on any instrument, I soon loose intrest.
Mitch

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 15 Jul 2006 3:33 am

B0b hit the nail on the head with this one, any kind of music can be played on E9th, not just country.

Ernie

http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

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Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 15 Jul 2006 5:12 am

I am completely in agreement with b0b here.
Mitch, different strokes for different folks, but your view is way too narrow minded for me, if those great players you mentioned only played those styles of tunes, you would not even know who they are.
I try to play the instrument and what fits the particular song.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 15 Jul 2006 5:20 am

I'm with Mitch. You can play any music on any instrument, but why would you? Johnny B. oode on accordian? It's possible I guess, but just not the same. JP

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 15 Jul 2006 5:35 am

This
http://www.perlowinmusic.com/DebussyAfternoonofaFaun.mp3

was played on the E9 (12 string)

Nuff said.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 15 Jul 2006 6:00 am

Mike,

wonderful use of the instrument and certainly argues for its versatility.
No way this is country: Debussy was dead well before Fiddlin' John Carson ever recorded a note.

But...

A brief moment in Your performance of the Debussy might well illustrate what one or two have mentioned above. There is a prolonged dominant-like passage beginning around 1:45 where you rock on the A pedal in a very "familiar" way. Does that make this a "country" performance of Debussy? Absolutely not. However, do I recognize the country tradition of the instrument when you pull that fifth string? Absolutely, yes I do.

In no way am I suggesting that this proves the E9 is a "country" tuning. Instead, I think it sheds light on why some people have a hard time getting past that notion. In the end it is back to the chicken-and-the-egg issue that several have mentioned, whether it is the tuning or the players use of it that has given it such a strong country stereotype.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Big Red
Durham, NH

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 15 Jul 2006 6:02 am

The old saying "You are what you read" applies to music as well. I believe You are what you listen to when it comes to music.

To think E9th is limited to the 'country sound' would be the same as thinking C6th is limited to the 'Hawaiian sound'. After all, that was its roots.

Music is nothing more than notes first imagined in the mind. The instrument along with its tuning is but the tool to carry it out. Rather than be a steel player I'd prefer to be a musician that plays steel.[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 15 July 2006 at 08:44 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 15 Jul 2006 6:29 am

Randy's nailed it (as you might expect, given what he achieves on E9). He's unquestionably a 'musician who plays steel'!

I played guitar for many years before I had a steel, but I've reached the point where I now visualise the music I want to play on my 'mental' E9 neck, rather than six-string, as used to be the case.

I spend very little time 'visualising' country music - my tastes lie in other directions - but it's interesting to me how my beloved E9 (with 3 + 5) has become my musical 'blackboard'. (...and the key - for me - is that 'D' string with the half-tone lower!!!

)

RR

PS: I should add that, while I'm unmoved by a lot of country music, I'm endlessly inspired by the very best country musicians. There's a delicious feeling that I'm hearing only a fraction of what they're capable of!

PPS: I'm sorry, but Mitch's view is a little depressing to me...[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 15 July 2006 at 07:40 AM.]

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 15 Jul 2006 6:44 am

The E9th doesn't have to be country sounding unless the player wants it to be. Check out the wonderful things Lloyd Green has played over the years on his albums like "I Can See Clearly Now" or "Dreams of the Everyday Housewife" among others. I had the pleasure of seeing Randy Beavers play a mini concert in the Peavey room at Scotty's convention a couple of years ago and he nailed some C6th jazzy sounding things and didn't even touch the inside neck although if I hadn't been watching him I'd have thought he was. I saw an old show on TNN in which Hank Thompson was showcasing a new recording with Hal Rugg on steel. Hal played the E9th neck for the whole thing and played some very diverse things. So all in all, it's the player, not the tuning. In the other direction, my old friend Blackie Taylor can play some of the best Ralph Mooney licks around and he does it all on a 12 string A6th tuning......JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 15 Jul 2006 7:28 am

Randy & Roger are right on. The other night at David Brombergs' blues jam a couple of young guns started playing some very funky stuff, I was going to layout and go get an adult refreshment but they tossed me a solo..so I caught it and played as funky as they did, throwing out lines that reminded me of Sly Stone... The crowd could not have been more appreciative. Later when I played a little A-Train, You Don't Know Me, & I Always Get Lucky With You.. they dug that too.
Be versatile, don't let the origins of the instrument dictate how or what you play.

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 15 Jul 2006 7:40 am

For you double neck players...every time you engage your Eb lever on the E9 neck, you've just put yourself into the B6 mode. Ironically that's 1/2 step below your C6 neck. Venture to say you could play most anything in that B6 mode as you can on your C6 neck...with the exception of a couple bass strings (thats where the U12 comes into play). A pedal down and your in E6.
I'd bet that is possibly why Lloyd Green stayed with just the E9 neck.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Jul 2006 8:01 am

The "whiney" E9th sound is the player's choice.

Not entirely, the tuning has some mighty skinny wires, and it's the player's tonal selection (along with those "skinny wires") that makes the "whiney" sound. If we stay off the first 4 strings, the problem sorta disappears. If we play with Chalker's type of tone, it also isn't a problem. However, there's no getting around the "cabbage-shredding" highs of the early works of Emmons, Brumley, Mooney, Myrick, Green, and all the rest of the players who established the identifying sound of '60s and later country music. (Note: "Whiney", that's not necessarily a derogatory statement, except to those that characterize the sound as such. Most of all, it's not my term, but that of others who don't like the sound, in any context.) Yeah, yeah, I know we can bury the sound in effects (like DVA did), and we can purposely avoid those skinny strings (as I sometimes do), or we can suck out the highs with EQ, but the fact remains that it's just a high, very taut, tuning.

As others have said, you can play more complex chords like Randy does, and avoid the requisite "C" pedal and "B" pedal stuff on 3 & 4, and it sounds better (to those who don't like "whiney"). But, that still doesn't alter the fact that E9th just has that high, "singing" character to it. A D9th tuning, IMHO (which I played for many years) improves the sound, and gives us closer to a non-whiney sound, but it's simply not in vogue right now.

I guess you could say many of us are hung up on that whiney stuff!

By the way, "whiney" doesn't define "country", for me...even though the early Ralph Mooney stuff (not the stuff he did w/Haggard) is probably my favorite steel sound. Lloyd used to play the old whiney sound, but his tone has mellowed immensely, and his technique is different, as well. His playing, though, still has a country character, to me.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 15 July 2006 at 09:03 AM.]

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 15 Jul 2006 8:11 am

Amen b0b!!!

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 15 Jul 2006 8:23 am

I love the fact that the E9th tuning has a brighter sound. I purposely have spent time converting what I know on the C6th over to the E9th because of this. The E9th cuts through in the mix better, and has more sustain. I realize it comes down to personal taste. Some people prefer a tenor to an alto sax or vise versa.

"Whiney" is a style not a tone.

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 15 Jul 2006 8:32 am

Just wanted to add that rhythmic aspects of music have a great deal to do with the style played (of course). E9 can certainly get all the notes and all the rhythms.

But yeah, Purple Haze (like in the great Super Bowl commercial) would definitely take on a humorous character on the accordian (to anyone who's "Experienced" the standard version).

Bob P.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 15 Jul 2006 8:37 am

Having been around for awhile prior to the first recordings that added those one or two pedals to stretch one or two strings to play those first country licks, I can vouch for it's reception by the majority of steel players of that era.

The players who played that style were called "string-stretchers", a derogatory term that still exists today among some western-swing musicians.

That reputation may even be deserved in some cases, but one well known and revered steel guitarist has proven by his many recordings that E9 can be adaptable to any venue....including western-swing.(Ray Price?)

.......even pedal changes on C6 can be commercial sounding if they are not done so that you cannot "hear" those changes occur.

Summarily, a tuning is not in itself an inherent classification of style. As has been said by many comments above, the output depends upon the interpretation and the presentation of the player!

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<img height=100 width=70 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/Scan10095.jpg>
www.genejones.com

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 15 July 2006 at 09:39 AM.]

Adrienne Clasky · Post by **Adrienne Clasky** » 15 Jul 2006 8:46 am

Boy, do I agree. For free jazz and beyond, the most important interval in soloing is the major second. You need to have a run of major seconds that sound as though they fall out of the instrument almost by accident. E9 has this. Now, I play a Universal, and I love it--it's an easier tuning--but I still think the E9 is a perfect tuning for jazz.

That's my humble opinion (G).

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 15 Jul 2006 8:53 am

I don't question whether C6 is useful or not but, it seems every band I play in I find hardly any songs that actually require a C6th type tuning. Especialy with the new stuff being played. J.C.

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 15 Jul 2006 9:35 am

"I'm sorry, but I find Mitch's view a little depressing"
Cheer up, my friend!

Look on the bright side...players "like me" will always have something in common with players "like you". The steel guitar.

Mitch

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 15 Jul 2006 11:45 am

I found Randy Beavers reply about relative 'brightness' of the tunings pretty interesting. I thought it was only my pickups that made the difference but they are identical George L E-66 I think. I have been trying to pick out several jazz melodies on my guitar and keep coming back to the E9 neck since I know the scale positions better than C6. The simple jazzy-sounding comping chords are definitely a little simpler to find on the C6 for a beginner like me. Randy has got me inspired just to sit down and figure out where those grips are on the E9.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 15 Jul 2006 11:58 am

b0b-Good post.
Yes, I belive the E9 tuning as it is constructed today can just about do it all.

As a Musician I can see all the wonderful possibilities of it. We all know the very beautiful music that can be played on it.

I've got a huunch that if you could put a C# between string 4 and string 5, without lousiing up your Grips, you would have one great extenison to this great tuning.

Then you could put the pedals 5-6-7 that is on C6 on your guitar and have the Complete E9 , lose nothing ,and add E6(C6) all on one neck. Just an idea.fwiw....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 15 Jul 2006 12:10 pm

It's all good! Kinda like a buffet,Uh! Just pick out what you want or like and leave the rest for somebody else!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Jul 2006 4:10 pm

"Whiney" is a style not a tone.

IMHO, whiney is both.

I totally disagree that the 'whiny' or 'country' character of E9 is anything that's inherent in the tuning.

I'll go along with the "not country" aspect of E9th, but it's still whiney, in most contexts. We can agree to disagree on that one. But sometime, I'll have to hear something on E9th that doesn't contain any "whiney" character (I haven't heard anything yet). A small amount of Mike's example is whiney, and he also uses the trick of playing a lot of single-note stuff. Still, when he, or Randy, or Lloyd, or Buddy, or just about anybody else plays on strings 3&4 up the neck, "whiney" (not necessarily country), results. Shucks, even Chalker's stuff on E9th was whiney sometimes! E9th is a high tuning, maybe not country-sounding, but definitely "whiney sounding" to a lot of ears

I also see it as kinda strange how much single string stuff, or only 2-string stuff, is done on pedal steel, especially when we (supposedly) wanted and needed allllllllll those pedals to play lots of chords? (Heaven forbid we should want a pedal for "licks"! I must bethe only "lick player" left.) No, whiney doesn't come across as easily in a single string mode. Maybe that's why it's used so much?

Also, in keeping with my cantankerous ways, I can't agree that the tuning doesn't help define a style. Weigh this...if we could (as players) play any style on any tuning, we'd only need one tuning!

Shucks, I thought everyone knew that!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 15 July 2006 at 05:12 PM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 15 Jul 2006 8:06 pm

Al I know what you're saying, see what I've been using for the past 35 years http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/tunings.html

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Steel players do it without fretting