Would a new Push pull have a market?

[Brandon Schafer]

Which one was judged to be the winner in the tone dept, Johnie?

I’d guess it was either the Emmons, Franklin or Jackson.

[Kelcey ONeil]

"The proper setup" is the biggest problem Jim --- no one, other than a few clever specialists has the faintest idea how a Push Pull works - including me! I live about 15,000 miles away from the nearest PP tech and know nothing about them myself having never owned one.

So I know an all pull guitar inside out and always do my own setups, adjustments and additions etc .. and I have no interest whatsoever in owning a push pull guitar - and to be perfectly honest I have serious doubts about some peoples claims to them being the "baseline" to compare everything else to.
So in answer to the original posters question ---- a resounding NO !! :-}

I think Jim’s implication was that a “new” one would be setup properly, from the factory. I personally, after having worked on almost every major model, can’t see why Push Pulls are regarded as being significantly more difficult than other steels. There are just as many all pull guitars that get just as screwed up by people who don’t know what they’re doing. Conversely, someone who has the ability to setup an all pull REALLY does have the ability to setup a Push Pull, if they actually understood how either one works and not just “putting it back like it was”.

Also, as for blind tests and other things, I’ve not met the first person who was not immediately impressed with a good Push Pull upon their first trying one. Most would would conclude that they’re not as complicated as the rumors would indicate, and some have gotten rid of they’re all pulls and switched to the Emmons. Again, with an exception or two, at least one particular push pull was able to be blind picked from several other steels. That is all of course a matter of preference, but there is a significant enough difference for there to be a preference. A lot of the criticism for classic instruments comes from folks who’ve never played one, or experienced one that had been monkeyed with. The latter situation is a turn off for ANY instrument, no matter how good it was, or could be.

And lastly, regardless of one’s personal preferences, the mechanical differences between the Push Pull and all other steels is by itself grounds for an appreciable difference in tone. The differences between Wraparound, Bolt On, and Cut Tail Push Pulls is significant enough, much less in a different changer mechanism altogether. Add to this that most old Emmons have practically no(appreciable) cabinet drop, there is certainly something to be desired in that alone.

[Johnie King]

I have too say they all sounded good but the Emmons took first place. But the Emmons did have a new set of strings.

[Patrick Huey]

What do you think if a new push pull could be manufactured today an sold at a competitive price would they get there share of the new pedal steel Market?

Johnnie
If i won the lottery I’d give my buddy Justin Griffith a couple mill cause he’s mu bud and I’d partner up with him and open a shop in Texas, I’d find Ron Lashley III and buy Emmons in its entirety, and we’d build nothing but old school push-pull Emmons. They have never been able to build an all pull, pull release, etc that could really REALLY replicate the push-pull tone and probably never will. Analogy....theyve been trying to duplicate the Hammond B-3’s tone since what...1952 or so? Nobody has bern able to ever duplicate it either even considering how far technology has come. We put a man on the moon and the ship they traveled in used a celestial navigation computer that was the size of an industrial multi stack rolling snap-on tools tool box or larger that performed the most complex and complicated arithmatic equations using freaking PUNCH CARDS! I’d say we have come a long long way and despite that sometimes old school is better. Maybe if i win the Powerball and do all this i will drop a few mill and have some serious engineering research done to find a feasible way to add working, consistent splits to the old school push-pull. Till then I’d

[Joel Jackson]

I think Kelcey has a lot of good points, I'm a guy who just got his first Emmons PP. I bought it specifically for the tuning stability, sustain, tone, and playability, all things which were an issue to some degree in the all pull guitars I've had before. Not to say I couldn't have found an all pull guitar that would have addressed those issues, but i decided to try the PP thing as it seemed to be largely what I was looking for. I told myself if i had the opportunity to buy a PP from one of the "PP wizards" i would. I bought a fatback D10 from Lynn Stafford. It stays in tune, has almost no "cabinet drop", sustains for days, is easy to play, and routinely makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. No complaints here. To the OP, i wouldn't have bought a new PP, especially for the price tag it would have, but I'm thrilled to have gotten a 50 year old Emmons with killer tone that is set up to perfection.

[Henry Matthews]

Years ago I recorded 4 different guitars on one song and told everyone where in the song another guitar started. The guitars were an Emmons 1970 push pull, a 6149 single neck Sho Bud, a Rains and MCI. All were D-10’s except the Sho Bud. It was a very interesting experiment in that everyone was guessing the Rains was Emmons, Sho Bud was MCI and just about every combination possible. Fred Justice finally got the right answer.

[Kelcey ONeil]

I think Kelcey has a lot of good points, I'm a guy who just got his first Emmons PP. I bought it specifically for the tuning stability, sustain, tone, and playability, all things which were an issue to some degree in the all pull guitars I've had before. Not to say I couldn't have found an all pull guitar that would have addressed those issues, but i decided to try the PP thing as it seemed to be largely what I was looking for. I told myself if i had the opportunity to buy a PP from one of the "PP wizards" i would. I bought a fatback D10 from Lynn Stafford. It stays in tune, has almost no "cabinet drop", sustains for days, is easy to play, and routinely makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. No complaints here. To the OP, i wouldn't have bought a new PP, especially for the price tag it would have, but I'm thrilled to have gotten a 50 year old Emmons with killer tone that is set up to perfection.

Thanks Joel!
I guess in answer to the original question, if the old Emmons virtues were readily apparent to the buying public, would it be a competitor price wise to the current big brands? With some modern updates and custom finish options, would it have appeal in price matching modern(high end?) steels. If not, all kind of a moot point lol

[Gary Spaeth]

since the subject of setup came up here i should mention that clem schmitz has a book on setting up the pp emmons. it might be still be available on ebay under seller name freedom sauce.

[Jack Stoner]

I've had both. A new 71 D-10 PP and a new 82 D-10 Franklin. My personal preference is for an all pull.

If the market was there, Ron Lashley would have continued building the PP's. The majority of the market was (and probably still is) for the all pulls.

[Jack Hanson]

If the market was there, Ron Lashley would have continued building the PP's.

That was almost 40 years ago.

CMI quit marketing Les Pauls in the early '60s because they believed there was no market for them.

[Lynn Stafford]

I bought a fatback D10 from Lynn Stafford. It stays in tune, has almost no "cabinet drop", sustains for days, is easy to play, and routinely makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. No complaints here. To the OP, i wouldn't have bought a new PP, especially for the price tag it would have, but I'm thrilled to have gotten a 50 year old Emmons with killer tone that is set up to perfection.

I just wanted to publicly thank Joel for taking a leap of faith in buying my 1970 Emmons sight unseen. He took my word that it is an absolute "cannon" and he's now a part of the PP family!



There is still a very high demand for Emmons PP guitars and I think there always will be. As one of the um... "older" guys in the business, I'm concerned that in several years from now there may be a lack of folks that have the knowledge to work on them. I'm glad to see that a few younger guys like Kelcey have taken an interest and are gaining experience and knowledge.

[Jack Hanson]

...I'm concerned that in several years from now there may be a lack of folks that have the knowledge to work on them. I'm glad to see that a few younger guys like Kelcey have taken an interest and are gaining experience and knowledge.

Indeed a valid concern. I have three push/pulls and feel fortunate to have had Clem available to keep 'em up to snuff. Kudos to Kelcey and the rest of the young whippersnappers who promise to keep these old classics growlin' for generations to come. Long live push/pulls.

[Henry Matthews]

That’s a beauty Lynn. I just traded for a 74 fatback that is an awesome guitar too. I had a 70 just like that one years back and sold it and have been kicking myself since. So I’m back in the world of fatbacks. Have heard a few say they didn’t like tone of one but I really like fat backs tone over a lot of the regular cut tails. My favorite push pull is the bolt on. I like either metal or wood neck bolt ons, both different but both great and this 74 I just got has a tone sorta like several bolt ons I’ve owned.

[Gary Spaeth]

clem's book is here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pedal-Steel-Gu ... XQMmJROe-R

[Ron Funk]

Gary -

'piggybacking on your prior posts, the above noted eBay link combines Clem's book(s) with his newer DVD material.

A great "package deal" for anyone's PP reference library.

Regards,
Ron

[Kelcey ONeil]

On perhaps another note, would the idea of a “custom” push pull have appeal? I get questions weekly about can a Push Pull support this copedent, or can a new body be built for a custom finish, etc? Push pull or no, an entrance into the market that had great service and good turnaround time would meet some level of success. With the big names running years behind in some cases, and some with less than stellar service, so-so products and services are being consumed because that’s the only option available to order what you want. That situation is ultimately what killed Emmons to begin with, not necessarily designs that were lacking.

[Donny Hinson]

I would imagine if a new PP was sold these days, especially an Emmons PP clone, it would cost $20,000.

No, not hardly. The rumor that they far more costly to make is totally unfounded. Add to that the modern Promat, which was an updated p/p design, didn't sell well and you have all the verification you need. No new steel today sells for twenty grand, or anything close to that.

[Erv Niehaus]

If there would be a reincarnation of the old push/pull it would have to have the Emmons name on it.
I think that's why the Promat never took off.
It was basically a Emmons clone and metric besides.

I don't want no plastic saddle, I want to feel the leather when I ride!
Erv

[Kelcey ONeil]

If there would be a reincarnation of the old push/pull it would have to have the Emmons name on it.
I think that's why the Promat never took off.
It was basically a Emmons clone and metric besides.

I don't want no plastic saddle, I want to feel the leather when I ride!
Erv

I think Erv is right, it would be like reissuing a 67 Corvette without It really being a Corvette if it’s under some other name. Truth is, Buddy’s original design is worthy of more than a handful of knock offs made of Frankenstein parts or something, which is likely what would happen if it was attempted. The idea of the real deal in the modern world remains attractive nonetheless....

[Paddy Long]

Another thing to consider, apart from JayDee .. there is hardly a top end player still playing a Push Pull guitar, even though they probably used to back in the day - Yes I know, Mike Johnson loves his Red one for live gigs, but still uses a Franklin in the studio, and he has a great Show Pro ... if the demand was there Emmons would probably be still in business and making Push Pulls.

[Philip Mitrakos]

I own that only single neck Push Pull Promat that was ship to the United States for Damier , he sold it to somebody else and I bought it from them , and I have to tell you that is one remarkable guitar , I've had it couple of years now , I put it up for sale one time someone said they wanted I choked up on a sale and I froze , I had a bunch of Emmons pp single necks , great guitars , I bought the pro mat because I wanted a new push-pull , some years back I bought a double-neck promat ...

[Mitch Ellis]

If there would be a reincarnation of the old push/pull it would have to have the Emmons name on it.
I think that's why the Promat never took off.
It was basically a Emmons clone and metric besides.

I don't want no plastic saddle, I want to feel the leather when I ride!
Erv

I think Erv is right, it would be like reissuing a 67 Corvette without It really being a Corvette if it’s under some other name. Truth is, Buddy’s original design is worthy of more than a handful of knock offs made of Frankenstein parts or something, which is likely what would happen if it was attempted. The idea of the real deal in the modern world remains attractive nonetheless....

But with Buddy Emmons and Ron Lashley both being gone, is the "real deal" even possible? A p/p built by anyone else is simply a reproduction rather it has the Emmons name on it or not. I don't think there is a profitable market.

Mitch

[Ross Shafer]

BMI still produces a push pull.

[Kelcey ONeil]

BMI still produces a push pull.

Oh, I’d be interested to see it! Does it have a model name?

[Ross Shafer]

Zane Beck model.