West Coast steel sound on MSA?

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 4 Jun 2006 10:04 am

I completely understand the question. He did not say he wanted a "Fender" sound but a Mooney-ish and Brumley-ish sound. Both still have the tone he desires and neither one plays a Fender.

A Fender tone is only accomplished by playing a Fender, period. No pickup on an MSA can produce a Fender tone because it was not designed to emulate the Fender guitar.

Jim,
Just because your a beginner, most of us cut you some slack. I've been as polite as I can with your self proclaimed expertise. This thread is about helping someone. It is not about who's right or wrong.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 04 June 2006 at 11:14 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 4 Jun 2006 10:20 am

Exactly. If you want a Fender sound buy a Fender. If you want a ZB sound buy a ZB. There are differences in the tone output of different brand of guitars. You can emulate the west coast thing pretty well by playing closer to the pickup as Paul said. Some here will not accept that different brands of guitars have different tone. I do. Good point Paul. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 June 2006 at 11:21 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Jun 2006 10:22 am

Eric, thank you for posting a sonic definition of the West Coast sound. I can relate now.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 4 Jun 2006 11:28 am

I really wasn't aware of a "West Coast" sound, and I think a "Bakersfield" sound to me rings more bells. I was thinking that around the Seattle, there's a more "heavenly tone" going on. (Sacred Steel reference.)

I've heard it said that the "mooney" sound sometimes was what Waylon required and requested apart from what his player actually wanted to play himself. Probably everybody can relate. I remember "tinning it up" for a guy named Jimmy Patton before he died ( how come half the stuff I remember is about people who died...?), and it just set my teeth on edge, but I did it. I did it with thin pickups, but still turned off my reverb and my highs way up. I don't remember how I held my hand except to take the money. (I used a quick firm but gently grasping motion..)

Myself, especially with "tone" issues, which I NEVER comment on, I'm sorry I got roped into this one. I don't claim any expertise, even after so many years of experience taking money from people for playing music. It doesn't take being an "expert" to state something that works "for you". I remember a long time ago when things were fresher and more appearant.

Sometimes I go "ya know, he's right". I tend not to think of his or her discography. It works for the other end too..

Anyhow, I think sometimes, maybe because of the pressure of the times, that people are a little more sensitive and quick to "go off" than they should be.

I'm certainly going to try an watch my own deportment a little more when I see "this" going on.

No real need for it here on my end.

I've got a life to attend to. Such as it is.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 04 June 2006 at 12:41 PM.]

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 4 Jun 2006 11:51 am

I think Paul was making a suggestion as to how Billy could get a"Mooneyish-Brumleyish"tone WITHOUT buying a pickup...to which Donny and I agreed...and the man who proclaimed Lynyrd Skynyrd's success"regional"said we were off-topic...thank goodness he's here to keep us straight...

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Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 4 Jun 2006 12:47 pm

You're welcome Steve.

Paul, your condescending attitude is noted and tossed with the dishwater. If a bunch of folks want to bootlick, fine, but I answered the guy's queston based on decades of experience replacing, rewinding, and designing custom wiring schemes for pickups to hit particular tonal "targets". The overall tonal scheme he wants to hit is approachable with a pickup change or rewind - that's a technical fact. Call Bill Lawrence and discuss it you might learn something.

You also seem to refuse to acknowledge that Bob Carlucci has *already done it*.

"Beginner" that, pal.

Alan James · Post by **Alan James** » 4 Jun 2006 1:09 pm

A belligerent attitude is both unbecoming and uncalled for.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 4 Jun 2006 1:17 pm

I dunno guys... I am not an expert on ANY of this, but let me put it thusly... A few months ago, right next to my Carter sat a pretty little Mid 60's sunburst Fender 400..after much soul searching, I decided my Carter on the 8 k coil and my old Fender sounded too much alike to keep both.. I sold my Fender ... Last year i went to a little mini jam a few hours from here hosted by Larry Jameison a fellow forumite... I was playing my Carter in the 8 K position and one of the guys a long time player turned to his friend and said,"that sounds like my old Fender 400.

I asked him about it and he said indeed to his ears it was almost identical...

This means NOTHING.. The guys saying technique is the most omportant thing are correct of course, BUT I must say that if you really WANT the old bright sound from your steel, talk to Jerry Wallace and see what he says.. I REGULARLY play with my TEN string 8 K Wallace T Tone and its bright, clean, glassy with that semi out of phase Fender vibe... The 12 K is MORE fat than I need but I use it also... 18-20 pickups???.. KEEP em as far as I am concerned.... I will NEVER understand it... everyone on this forum adores the old vintage steel guitar sound, and then runs and buys 300 watt SS amps and pickups that could be used for line transfomers... Yes it works for some guys,not me...

I was asked by a great steel player on this forum who heard me play ,about my tone... He wanted to know how I got my sound.. He said he liked it, told me it was out of the ordinary,ceratinly NOT a commercial sound... and asked if I use a hollow bar..

I explained how I got the tone, and I always think of his bar question as a high compliment.. It means my tone caught the ear of an expert..
You guys can argue all you want, but I know what I know... I enlisted the help of an expert[Jerry Wallace] in getting me a bright but pleasing vintage sound from a modern guitar,and when I told him I thought 8 K would get me in the ball park, he didn't flinch..

He agreed, and built it for me.. It WORKS... NOT for everyone, but does for me.. My Carter with the TT pickup is the sweetest sounding steel I have ever had for the west coast sound.... Jazz? nah....
E9 bounce?? you betcha..bob

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 4 Jun 2006 1:41 pm

Jim,if agreeing with somebody when they are right makes me a"bootlicker"then I guess that's what I am...when you are right you might have some"bootlickers"...I haven't seen any for you yet...just bad manners.

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[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 04 June 2006 at 02:47 PM.][This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 04 June 2006 at 03:02 PM.]

Rex Wiseman · Post by **Rex Wiseman** » 4 Jun 2006 1:43 pm

HMMMMMMM.............and Y'all wonder why Paul doesn't post on here as often as you would like.............I can't imagine.... Steve, I'm with you buddy - Bad Manners don't cut it.[This message was edited by Rex Wiseman on 04 June 2006 at 02:52 PM.]

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 4 Jun 2006 1:49 pm

Hey Rex...don't run off...we're having fun...

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Rex Wiseman · Post by **Rex Wiseman** » 4 Jun 2006 1:54 pm

Me & You - Back to Back, Pal. I'm with ya. By the way, Happy Birthday Paul.

(Belated)[This message was edited by Rex Wiseman on 04 June 2006 at 02:57 PM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 4 Jun 2006 2:24 pm

Jim,

Sorry about the beginner statement. Nobody likes condescending remarks.

Actually, I hope we can remain online friends. That's totally up to you. Here's where I am coming from.

You said that I am responding off topic because I missed the intent of the question.....I spend alot of time making sure I understand any issue before posting. I don't want to give bad advice, nor do I want to lead someone down the wrong path. I also don't want to debate something that is posted in a NON-confrontational manner like my first post was.

I lost my patience after reading your assumption about my comprehension. Can you read my mind? After the last few weeks I'm a little tired of being disected on this forum.

Why not state what "you" believe without statements about my comprehension of the posed question and leave it at that. Why get offended when others considered my resolution "right"?

This question was asked with an assumption that changing pickups was his "only" route which I disagree as being the only option available to him.

I posted the picking option for him to try before he started spending money chasing pickups and amps for the tone he wants. Nothing about that suggestion was in response to your post. You still took it upon yourself and began to tear my post apart.

Bill Lawerence is a dear friend. You may be shocked at where he stands on changing sounds within the same pickup by adjusting the amount, angle and position of where the string is picked.

Westcoast tone is all about the touch and aggressive attitude. Red Rhodes, Jay McDonald, Jay Dee, Brumley, Rusty Young, Sneaky Pete, and even Garcia played aggressively and the types of guitar and pickups used was as numerous as the players, yet the sound is consistantly westcoast.

Paul
[This message was edited by Franklin on 04 June 2006 at 04:09 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 4 Jun 2006 2:28 pm

Bob.

I'm with you on JW, those 16ks with staggered polepieces got me a sound I'd been looking for for years, and I wonder why there aren't more staggered ones in use. He took back the JW TT large magnet model that wasn't working for me and gave me a generous credit towards the new stag-mag white tops I wanted for my Marrs. I didn't suggest it, he offered. I think he even sent them out to Duane and Jeff before I got him paid. Prince of a guy.

I've had hours of pickup conversations with the old guy at Bill Lawrence too, and he's certainly been more than willing to enlighten me on the dynamics of certain pickups et al. His info helped me make my descision, and I like the sound I ended up with. nice and transparent signal, and more power from the thinner wound strings from the staggered poles.

Myself, I've had a pretty trying couple weeks fighting large illegal track hoe and crusher plant component loads at work, changes of management in a company that I've got too much responsibility in, covering for guys that have quit, gigs and recording on top of it, and I've been a little too ready to jump on what I consider condescensions and insults.

This weekend I purposefully took a weekend off of gigging to keep my week down to 50 hours. I finally got a little rest. After just turning 53, I'm needing more "naps"..

Paul, I always expect you to show up at one of my Jubitz gigs, and it really does make me look around and wonder what disguise you'd be wearing..

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 04 June 2006 at 03:39 PM.]

Bruce Bouton · Post by **Bruce Bouton** » 4 Jun 2006 2:57 pm

If i only had one guitar I probably wouldn't go on the pickup chase just to get a Fender 400 sound.As a fellow "bootlicker" I would probably follow Paul's advice and change my technique to try and achieve a reasonable facsimile of the Mooney sound. One other option is to get a second pickup wound relatively thin and install in front of the original pickup. it.I'd hate to give up a good basic steel tone. I'm probably not a good one to opinionate on tone. I've spent over thirty years trying to find it. Everytime I get close Steve "bootlick" Hinson does me one better. BTW Paul, that was pretty "acceptable " tone last night on the opry.
BB

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 4 Jun 2006 3:07 pm

Paul - thanks. I respect your response and apologize for my lash-out as well. Funny how you and I both seem to get beaten on, but by different camps.

Anyway - I see your point - I just felt I was directly answering his "pickup" question with a "pickup" answer; one that I know absolutely works. Your method works as well, but IMO it could be more limiting, as it requires a player to use a certain picking position...kind of locking his right hand. But it certainly does work, I've used the same thing on guitar forever - and it's exactly the same regardlss of the instrument - it forces a certain hand position, which can be a little restrictive. And he seemed to be looking for a more permanent solution.

I realize Brumley and Mooney don't play Fenders...but at one point they did, and that became, from what I'm told kind of typical of the "west coast sound". It's funny, but only in Mooney's case do I hear it as trebly as people seem to think - my 400 (short scale) and 1000 (long scale) sound like fat Jags and Jazzmasters more than the scalp-shearing 50's Tele tone. and I've heard Sneaky get all kinds of variations between trebly and thick, but with the same overall guitar tone - you KNOW what the guitar is even though the timbre changes.

But trebly or not, there's still a certain glass-like tone to all of it, with a reverse-hump in the upper mids that is quite opposite in higher-impedance pickup systems.

Anyway - same target, different approaches. I still firmly hold to the proven fact that you can pretty well nail the overall genre via different pickup winding - then the attack is up to the player, but he'll have the raw materials already present.

Make sense?

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 4 Jun 2006 3:13 pm

..."funny how you and I both seem to get beaten on"...LOL

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Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 4 Jun 2006 3:33 pm

Once again,Its in the hands of the player and what he or she wants to hear. Closer to the bridge will bring out high's. No one player can emulate the sound of the original
and I see no reason to.Every steel guitarist should have their own idea as to sound.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 4 Jun 2006 3:41 pm

I just logged onto this thread and I must comment on the very discourteous attitude shown toward Paul Franklin. A man who is easily one of the most highest profile professional steel guitar players in history and also is more than generous enough to share even one drop of his expertise with us here on the forum deserves much more respect than this. To take a snipe at him is the epitome of self serving idiocy in that all it serves is to deny the rest of us the wealth of information that he can and does share here. Where he comes from and what he knows represents the most valid experience and expertise that very few players will ever have.

The "bootlick" remark and the other remarks were disgusting.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 4 Jun 2006 4:14 pm

Where he comes from and what he knows represents the most valid experience and expertise that very few players will ever have. And I have to agree with that. His HOF award is righfully deserved not only as a great musician but as a honorable human being.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 4 Jun 2006 4:22 pm

Why do you suppose people pick on you so much, Jim?

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 4 Jun 2006 4:33 pm

Steve,

The "John Steinbeck" cut on your site has the west coast sound down. Now, I bet that was a Sho~Bud? It sounds very Brumley.

Russ

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 4 Jun 2006 4:43 pm

Well said, Bill. The following is off the original topic but I think I'm safe to have a little "bootlick" here:

Paul, I've learned a lot from your instructional courses and can safely say at least half of my style can be attributed to what I learned from you. (Lloyd covers the other half

). If it wasn't for you, I couldn't solo in a minor key in three different positions, nor would I ever have raised the 1 and 7 a whole tone and got so many tasty licks and fills that keep me safe in my job. Please don't let one member discourage you from participating in the forum. We all benefit from your vast knowledge of this intensely difficult instrument.

BTW, complimenting someone and respecting their knowledge is not bootlicking. People need to know they're appreciated. It's one of the finer things in life to be able to acknowlege someone and remind them of the difference they make to others.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 4 Jun 2006 4:55 pm

Bill - did you happen to note the apologies?

Of course not.

Duane - did you read the whole thread?

I doubt it. This is a subject I know very well, and I was clearly answering the original poster's question with the most direct answer to what he was asking. Paul apologized for what he said to me, I did in turn for my reaction, and all should be good. It's other people who don't seem to want to let it go.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 4 Jun 2006 7:50 pm

Russ-actually I cut those songs on an SD-10 Emmons LeGrande guitar with a Lawrence 910 pickup...

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