Carter Guitar String Return

Bruce Bouton · Post by **Bruce Bouton** » 20 May 2006 3:43 pm

I currently own four gutars,a push pull ,a Franklin and two Carters.I use the Franklin and the Carter for recording work. I use my other Carter on my road Gig with Reba. The push pull has been in the case for awhile. My experience is that all steel guitars have an issue with string return. It drove me crazy on my push pull. I always had to play around it so when the LeGrande came out I was able to have return compensators. Hallelujah!When I bought my Franklin I had compensators. They continue to work great. I consider them to be an integral part of my guitar. Imagine my surprise when I purchased my first Carter and it didn't have the return compensators that I had expected. Guess what1 It doesn't need them. For some odd reason the strings always come back to pitch. Don't ask me why.I'm wondering if it is because of the shorter scale length. That's the only explanation I can come up with.Every 24 1/4 scale guitar I've played has had the string return problem. There's probably a simple answer.
BB

Ward Skinner · Post by **Ward Skinner** » 20 May 2006 4:02 pm

Funny, I checked my E (4th string) yesterday because of the on-going discussion. It is less than a year old Carter DB, changed strings 8 days ago. E is tuned to +10 cents, raised and lowered the E and it returned true as well..may have been off by up to +-2 cents for a second or two..after raising and lowering a few times it settled on returning right straight to 10 several times in a row..I stopped while I was ahead..good enough for me.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 20 May 2006 4:11 pm

Hi Bruce

For some odd reason the strings always come back to pitch.

When I owned a Carter, I noticed that the keyhead is not as far down below the fret board. In other words it was closer to being level with the fret board.
Which of course, would decrease the chances of non-returning strings, because there would be less pressure on the roller nut, which is the cause of MOST non-returning string issues.

Notice I said "MOST"

I have also found a direct relationship with the length of the keyhead, and non-returning strings. It has been my experience that the longer the keyhead, the more prone to non-returning string issues.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 20 May 2006 at 05:39 PM.]

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 20 May 2006 4:51 pm

Bruce:Is the Carter a 24"scale?and are you coming up here this summer to fish?I see Hobo every weekend.
Stu

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 20 May 2006 5:28 pm

Luck of the draw.

Fred Justice · Post by **Fred Justice** » 20 May 2006 5:56 pm

Bruce, my good friend Danny Sneed down here in Phoenix just recently started playing a Carter (Billy Phelps old Guitar)and he tell's me the same thing you said about yours
He told me every string returns right on the money, beats me.

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Fred Justice,
Fred's Music www.fredjusticemusic.com
Rains Steel Guitars

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 20 May 2006 6:33 pm

Could it be that the barrells at the bellcranks on the Carters let it return naturally like they should instead of rods rubbing and possibly hanging up? What would work better, a bone nut or straight piece of alluminum at the keyhead or a roller nut? I'm playing the Carter guitars too and mine returns perfect all the time. The scale isn't that much shorter than my p/p Emmons. Where's John Fabian right now?

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 20 May 2006 7:25 pm

Frank if the rods were hanging up? It would return flat not sharp.I think it's the combo of the shorter scale and the fact that Carter does a better job with their roller nuts than say Emmons just to name one builder.

For a long time lower return compensators were not an option on Carters.I understand that now they are??........bb[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 20 May 2006 at 09:50 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 20 May 2006 7:37 pm

Interesting.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 20 May 2006 8:14 pm

I played an Emmons push/pull guitar for many years. It had the typical hysteresis problem on the E strings. Raise the E's a half-step and they returned a hair flat. Lower the E's a half-step and they returned a hair sharp. Simply picking the string again or bumping one of those knee-levers made the string snap back to its original tuning. I got in the habit of bumping the lower lever after using the raise lever and bumping the raise lever after using the lower lever. That seemed to do the trick. I didn't even have to think about it. They were both on the same knee. Whenever I would release the lever, I would bump the one on the other side.
I have noticed that my Mullen does not have this problem with the E strings. They always snap back to E (according to my tuners) after raising or lowering them. I don't know if this applies to all Mullen guitars. Perhaps I just got lucky.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Mullen U-12, Excel 8-string Frypan, Evans FET-500, Fender Steel King

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 20 May 2006 9:03 pm

The problem seems to get worse the further the string is lowered.Most any of todays guitars will return a 1/2 tone lower within 5 cents sharp of pitch. The whole tone lowers and tone and 1/2 can be a real problem.Like 10 cents which is not acceptable. I still don't understand why builders don't make lower return comps standard equipment like Franklin did.Unless, their guitar will return a whole tone lower within 5 cents of pitch.

I also think triple lower should be standard. And it is with several of the high end builders. [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 20 May 2006 at 10:05 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 May 2006 2:17 am

my current Carter, 04, and my previous , 96 both passed the E's test..I never checked the first one.

SO I guess my comment is...

"It's NOT luck of the draw".

Curt , I think the lower profile neck with a slightly less angle down to the keyheads is a clear benefit..

E's test. tune 2nd string up to E..

check the 4 and 8 raise and lower as compared to the natural E now on the 2nd string...

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 21 May 2006 2:40 am

That's right Tony,
John Fabian showed me that once and I tried it again the other day after reading one of the other posts on this subject. The Carter I have now and the one I had before did not have return compensators and they both returned to pitch. Something that I used to do before owning these guitars was that I would wind the string on the peg on the inside for the 1-2-9 and 10 strings. The rest were on the outside meaning towards the middle. Some had three or four winds or even more. I did this to keep the strings as much in a straight line as I could. I normally cut the strings to about three inches passed the the peg so I'm probably getting a few more winds than some others here. I figured the more in a straight line, the more they'd stay in tune. I'd say it helped some on the Emmons p/p and I did it on the Legrande but have found no need to on the Carter. Another thing is the Emmons guitars all have the peg to attached the string to at the changer where the Carters don't. That may play into the equation.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 21 May 2006 3:04 am

I have a Carter and I really couldn't even figure out what all these discussions were about - my guitar stays in tune when I press the pedals. Do you mean that GFIs, Derbys, Rains, Rittenberrys, MSAs and all these other newer steels DON'T stay in tune? Old Emmons and Shobuds I could understand, but is Bud Carter the only one who got it right?

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 21 May 2006 3:54 am

Hummm, sounds like a need for a GFI Keyless to me, solves alot of those problems.

Ernie

http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm
GFI PEDAL STEELS - FENDER 'STEEL KING' AMPS

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Alan James · Post by **Alan James** » 21 May 2006 4:52 am

You have to wonder why some of the keyless folks keep trying to promote their personal preferences on all these threads.

This behavior seems both childish and churlish to me. I find it getting old and boring. It reminds me of a broken record.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 21 May 2006 5:18 am

I just checked my Carter and as Bruce has pointed out it always returns to perfect pitch. O yes, I used to own a GFI keyless. The Carter is far superior in every way!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 May 2006 5:32 am

this whole dicussion reminds me of the LEFT vs RIGHT in politics..

There is never really any debate, just one party or the other always offering yet another rebuttal to persuade the other that they are wrong.

These are Musical Instruments by choice..

not by persuasion...

I find all the arguements against conventional KEYED Guitars to be THIN....if not bordering on offensive at tmes..

all this hi tech plus and minus cents etc..

It is apparent now with some other threads and other questions being asked, we are heading down the road of ANYTHING that goes wrong , regardless of the problem, is because it is not KEYLESS...

at the end of the day the BLADE and the BLACK album still comes in as everyones favorite...or real close to the top of the list...and..I see KEYS...

I personally don't care what anyone plays, because at the end of the day..thats what we are supposed to do with all of them...

Play em' more than we talk about em'...

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite


[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 May 2006 at 06:34 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 21 May 2006 6:06 am

Just curious: who winds their strings over the post, and who winds them under?
Bruce, David, TB--which way are yours wound?
On my Starter, I wound them under, thinking that increased down-bearing at the nut would be better. (And that it yields a counter-clockwise motion for raising the pitch of a string, more like my guitars.)

John Fabian set me straight about the Starter.
And I don't know how I wound them on the MSA.

Could that variable be a major factor in pitch return accuracy?

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 21 May 2006 6:20 am

I have never heard of under-the-post winding as a recommended choice (but then again I always considered over-the-top toilet paper mounting to be a crime against god and man). I have always seen and always wound over the post.
That being said, winding the 5 & 6 strings under the post is one of several things that can be tried if there is bad vibration/buzz/ at the roller nut---something I had on one old guitar.
And ditto on Tony---personal holy grails, grudges, and shills just cloud the waters and, with their increased and boring knee-jerk reflexive repetition rapidly lose anything resembling credibility. And it was a pleasure to see Bill Hankey posting the other day.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 21 May 2006 7:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You have to wonder why some of the keyless folks keep trying to promote their personal preferences on all these threads.
This behavior seems both childish and churlish to me. I find it getting old and boring. It reminds me of a broken record.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhh............I guess because we are talking about string over return.

And since keyless guitar do not cause keyhead induced string over return, Ernie commented on the issue.

BTW, it is only childish and boring when a person either does not understand the concepts, or is not interested.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 21 May 2006 at 08:37 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 May 2006 7:44 am

"You have to wonder why some of the keyless folks keep trying to promote their personal preferences on all these threads.
This behavior seems both childish and churlish to me. I find it getting old and boring. It reminds me of a broken record."

I'm not one of them, but I think it's because they apparently have a valid point - those guitars don't have the same problems.

Nothing childish about that. To me, it seems kind of odd to stick with a problem guitar, unless there's something REALLY unusual about it. I play 8-string Fenders...they have their own set of problems, but there aren't a lot of choices for that string spacing, tone and feel. But "standard" steels are pretty consistent in general design intent, so it seems perfectly valid to point out - "here's a guitar (or some) that would solve your problem."

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 May 2006 8:15 am

No Jim, you are only partially correct..

they apparantley have a valid "OPINION"..

which is not quite the same as an absolute FACT...

but is being portrayed as...
"I AM THE ONLY ONE THATS RIGHT"

thats the issue, not compensators, Keys vs KEYLESS and such...

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 May 2006 at 09:18 AM.]

Ward Skinner · Post by **Ward Skinner** » 21 May 2006 8:24 am

Curt, we were not talking about string over return as you say. The thread was titled "Carter Guitar String Return". No "over" in there, and Bruce's point, as I took it, was that his Carters return to tune. And that was followed by others saying the same thing, even a Mullen owner.

And then right after another Carter owner saying their steel returns true, the "get a GFI keyless" comment was made. There was no reason for that comment, and I can see the reason for the frustration.

Alan James · Post by **Alan James** » 21 May 2006 8:25 am

Well said, Ward!

I find a lot of the discussions regarding the physical phenomena and anomalies regarding steel guitars interesting and informative. I also find that the tedious repetition of "this is the only or the correct cure or method" gets old fast and tends not to elucidate but to obfuscate and irritate.

That's my opinion and it's worth the paper it's written on.

[This message was edited by Alan James on 21 May 2006 at 09:38 AM.]