Tone is in the hands

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 4 May 2006 8:37 am

Has anyone noticed that your rig sounds different when you step away from it rather than being right on top of it? I've moved my amp to the other side of the room, or also had a friend of mine play my rig through the mains at sound check with my same amp settings. I've also heard myself recorded live to confirm that I was getting the same sound I wanted. It seems when I'm near my amps I can't fully hear the full sound as much as when I'm standing away from the rig. I learned a lesson many years ago from a name blaze Telecaster player in Nashville whose rig sounded absolutely shrill on stage, but sound perfect out front. He explained to me to always err on the side of treble because the room and people in it will round out the treble out front. I have found that to be the case with me.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 May 2006 8:49 am

Dave Mudgett, I think that you and I are not that far from the same lines of thinking. My comments in the last post were more directed to David Mason's, as he seemed to indicate my opinions might have insulted some famous guitarists which he had mentioned. I don't believe I've insulted anyone, I've only given my own opinions. They are my own, and they're offered only to make people think, and to give an alternate take on things. You've probably noticed, I'm not one to go along with the crowd (regardless of how big a crowd that might be) if I disagree.

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 4 May 2006 8:55 am

Kevin brings up a great point,

I don't care for a lot of treble. I usually have my amp about 10 ft in back of me, to try and get somewhat, the sound that's going out front.

On a few occasions I have had other pickers,
that I respect, come up and tell me that I need more treble for definition..maybe I should listen to those opinions.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 4 May 2006 8:56 am

Some folk eat with chopsticks, some with forks, some with their fingers.

Some folk use simple physics to generate the next generation instruments and sounds; some folk go by gut feel (head/heart/hands).

Some folk play in cowboy boots, some in soft soled shoes, some in sandles, and some in stocking feet (the tone is in the what?)

How you approach things depends upon where you came in and your previous training/environment etc...

BUT...it appears the the "techies" have less trouble "tolerating" the expressions of non techies than the other way around.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 4 May 2006 9:30 am

Donny - no insulted taken here. And you know, I never disagree with anybody about anything.

Yeah, Kevin brings up an important point - the acoustics of the room and geometry. Nothing substitutes for good ears. But I'll add here that perhaps some slight knowledge of room acoustics isn't such a bad idea either.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 4 May 2006 9:54 am

I have a book called "Secrets from the Masters" that's a compilation of interviews over the years from Guitar Player magazine. In one of the interviews, Jerry Garcia discusses at length moving his picking hand around and using different picking angles and techniques to get different sounds. I have a book called "A Journey Through Life with Guitar in Hand" that's a compilation of columns that Steve Morse wrote for Guitar One magazine wherein he discusses right hand picking placement, at length. Carlos Santana says that it take him an hour and a half to two hours of open blowing before he really starts to find his own sound; NOT what he's using in concert, but finding the things that affect what he WILL be using in concert. One of the beginner exercises taught by Robert Fripp in his "Guitar Craft" school is to find one note - and play it for an hour. There's a famous story of Buddy Emmons practicing harmonics at the Grand Ole Opry - for four hours straight. I guess he was just too bored to find anything better to do?

Yes, I do think that great guitarists do pay attention to what they're doing. Of course they can do it on the fly on stage, but that's a result of thousands of hours of practice, built up into years of playing. Listen to Billy Gibbons play one note - listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan play one note. They might not be able to articulate the specific harmonics that they're playing as well as a trained musician like Garcia or Morse, but they still know exactly what they're doing. I do, also, agree that the vast majority of guitarists don't know what they're doing. Which might, possibly, have some effect on why they've never been on the cover of Guitar Player magazine....[This message was edited by David Mason on 04 May 2006 at 10:57 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 4 May 2006 10:41 am

To first find, then repeatedly get the same results from a particlular "angle of attack", attack force, pluck location, etc, etc, then to figure out if "that note sounds nice", then to practise it until you can do it again, the next session, day, week, month...
That's where the fun is! (and a few grey hairs)

The frequency of the note may be 440 hz. But the shape of the waveform can be really weird, it just repeats at 440 hz. That's the difference between A from a Piano and A from a Pipe Organ. Timbre is the characteristic assigned to the shape of the waveform. Timbre is caused by overtones.
OK Flame Away!

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 04 May 2006 at 11:56 AM.]

Adrienne Clasky · Post by **Adrienne Clasky** » 4 May 2006 11:18 am

"Timbre is the characteristic assigned to the shape of the waveform. Timbre is caused by overtones."

That was really interesting, Ray! Is that why the same note sounds so different on a high string at the first fret than on a low string above the twelth fret?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 May 2006 12:58 pm

Both timbre and wave shape make instruments sound different. Generally, timbre is the harmonic structure, or what we call "overtones". Different harmonic structures alter the waveform itself, and cause the shape to be be changed (distorted) from a pure sine wave to some other shape, such as a square wave, a sawtooth wave, or some other (non sinusoidal) wave shape.

Another factor that must be mentioned is the envelope, since it also plays a part in how an instrument sounds. The envelope has 3 basic characteristics; rise time (which we call "attack"), duration (which we call "sustain"), and decay (simply, the term for how abruptly the wave ceases). Percussion instruments generally have a sharp rise time, i.e., the time it takes the wave or sound to develop sufficient amplitude to be heard. Horns and woodwinds generally have a slower rise-time, giving them that characteristic "waa-waa", or "who-who" sound. In some instruments (like a horn, violin, and to some extent, a pedal steel) the notes can be sustained at a consistent amplitude (or "volume") almost indefinitely, while in others (like a piano or acoustic guitar), the notes exhibit a burst of volume, followed by the inevitable rapid decay. Of course, other factors such as vibrato and dampening can effect some change on the decay rate of certain instruments. In other words, all other things being equal, a good player can get more sustain out of a guitar (through technique alone) than a beginner can. But then, this brings us right back to the old "hands" thing, so I better quit while I'm ahead!

This has been a good discussion, and I've probably said too much already.

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 4 May 2006 1:18 pm

Without shifting this discussion toooo much, I would just like to comment on recurring statements of "tone" like "cuting through the mix", "sounding muddy", etc....

One mistake (IMHO) I see pedal steel players make on stage, is to try to define a "good" steel guitar tone, and recreate that tone where ever they play. If you are an instrumentalist, and the main focus of the music act on stage... that would be a valid course to persue. However, I'm guessing most of us are performing as sidemen, creating musical backing for mostly voclaists.

Now the style of vocalists, genre of music being performed, nature of the venue (concert, dance, inside, outside), and even perspective of the audience (are you backgound entertainment at a Car Show, Fair, or have folks bought tickets to hear escpecially your vocalist and band?),and even the sex of the vocalist (lord knows I absolutly love backing a great female singer).....

All these factors affect my decision of what is "good" tone. Added to these factors are enviromental and acoustical considerations (if I'm playing in a hopelessly reverberating hall or room I may even let up on some the great sustain my guitar and amp are capable or, just to damped some of the "clutter").

Backing a softly sung ballad by a "whispering" vocalist, I tend to have a "darker" tone and don't want to "cut though the mix"... but rather invisibly reinforcement the tender vocal nuances, and if I'm in a rockabilly band I'm leaning over to the brighter "west Coast" steel tone, dueling with the Telecaster player.

Sorry for the long post.... there's just a lot that goes into what is "good" tone.

------------------
Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box www.ameechapman.com

[This message was edited by David Wren on 04 May 2006 at 03:21 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 5 May 2006 5:31 am

There have been many, many posts lately regarding "overtones." I have read them all. But, posters do not seem to agree on what they are.

Adrienne, it may just be a question of terminology. As Ed Packard suggests, it may be a question of where you're coming from:

How you approach things depends upon where you came in and your previous training/environment etc...

My original post came as a difference of opinion on the use of 'overtones' regarding the string segments in a keyhead; but it is possible that sympathetic vibrations could come under the heading of overtones.
But generally, as Bobby posted:

The key to getting good overtone content from any guitar is in the placement of your right hand.

He seems to be using 'overtone content' in the same way as I use 'harmonic content,' so we could infer that they are the same thing, also called 'partials.'

In a previous post, you describe having found them while vamping on 'Memphis.' That triad you hear probably comes from harmonics retained by pick-blocking at a harmonic node. If you happened to block at the 19th fret, the notes of the triad would be an octave and a fifth above the notes you picked, a nicely harmonic complement to the root triad.
But I'm just guessing.

Still, there's a difference in the harmonics created by a partially blocked string and the harmonic content created by where the string is picked--the difference between subdividing a string into a segment of specific length vs. plucking a string at a general location that colors the note with various overtones. It's something to play around with, like you're doing.
Hope that helps.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » 5 May 2006 5:53 am

A freind of mine said it took him about a week to get the new amp to sound like his old one. I would also say that most players play by ear and have no idea what they are doing but have develiped a sound they like so that is their sound. Every one sounds different but bood in its own way.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 5 May 2006 7:15 am

Tech objectors, DO NOT read this!

Just what many do NOT want or need to know, but for the few:

Timbre, harmonic content, overtones, and all the other such discipline dependent jargon is the result of the string/instrument vibrations as transmitted via the pickup/volume pedal/amp. The basic unit of it all (starting point) is frequency = Hz...those terms all are shortcuts to defining the frequencies combined to make the sound.

When a string is excited (picked/hammered/e-bowed/bowed)it vibrates at many frequencies at the same instant. It is these frequencies that determine what you hear. The frequencies of a single vibrating string can contain all the "harmonics/overtones" that give the diatonic, chromatic, and if carried far enough, the quarter tone scales...these frequencies are all present in the single excited string. These same frequencies determine the chord structure, and the progressions that we prefer.

The frequency content of a string is different depending upon where it is plucked/hammered/bowed/etc., thus "tone/timbre/et al may be controlled by excitation location (right hand for you right handed pickers).

The lowest frequency at which the string vibrates is commonly called the FUNDAMENTAL = 1f, or h1. The string only vibrates at 1X, 2X,3X,4X,5X etc., or h1,h2,h3,h4,h5...length,gauge,tension, and string material, combined with clamping materials and method of clamping, plus location and method of exciting (and a few other things) determine
the frequency content.

h1,h2,h4,h8 etc. (1X,2X,4X,8X the fundamental [1f = h1]) are the vibrations for that string that are all the same NOTE as the fundamental, just in different OCTAVES. Lets call that NOTE the ROOT, and lets say that it is C.

h3,h6,h12,h24 etc. (3X,6X,12X,24X the fundamental [1f = h1]) are all the same NOTE at different octaves, but are NOT the same note as 1f etc. This new note is a 5th above the Root note = G in this case. So the vibrations have given us roots and 5ths for many octaves.

h5,h10,h20 etc. (5X,10X,20X the fundamental [1f = h1]) are all the same note at different octaves, but are NOT the same note as h1 or h3, so are not roots or 5ths...they are 3rds (think E)...amazing, we now have roots, 3rds, and 5ths all at the same time on the same single string = a major chord.

If we continue the pattern, we get the Major scale, then the chromatic scale, etc...all at the same time, and on the same single string; The string vibrates at R,5,3,7,9,11,13 and so forth, with the root being the loudest and the rest falling in amplitude in the order given.

You can control the relative amount (amplitude) of each h# depending upon where and how you excite the string. 3rds are a nuisance , as are 7ths and some others, as produced by the vibrating string and need some attention re tuning, and playing technique.

The thought approach given above is a "self consistent" description of what is happening in the string. Now add in a G string to reinforce the C strings 5th (loudest) harmonic and start all over again. If you beat the G strings h1 with the C strings h1 you get an E. Now add the E string to reinforce the Es already found, and the h1s for the three strings give the C chord = C,E,G = R,5,3. Each of these strings has its own set of h1,h2,h3,h4 etc., and these all beat together and give more notes (some combinations you would like not to hear at the same time).

You don't NEED to know this kind of thing to PLAY, but realize that the sounds are not magic...they are understandable in terms of simple arith' and basic engineering physics.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 5 May 2006 7:50 am

Good one on the "envelope" Donny, that too is important. I'm glad you caught that.
For a real treat check out the controls on a classic Moog synthesizer.

Yes Adrienne, if you pluck your 4th string E, then set the bar on the 5th string, 5th fret and pluck an E, the two tones sound "almost" the same (i.e. both frequencies should be the same) but it's the differences in harmonic content that make the 5th string E sound less "shrill" than that from the 4th string.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 05 May 2006 at 09:01 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 5 May 2006 8:45 am

Deleted....not relevant!

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 06 May 2006 at 06:55 AM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 5 May 2006 11:19 am

nice job, ed, that about covers it....

Tony Dingus · Post by **Tony Dingus** » 5 May 2006 11:41 am

Buddy Emmons said in a PV Monitor mag interview that he played 3 different guitars on George Strait albums and he sound pretty much the same on those different guitars. I think the guitars were Emmons, Sierra and either a Derby or (E)MCI. It goes from the head to the hands.

Tony

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 5 May 2006 1:12 pm

The key to getting good overtone content from any guitar is in the placement of your right hand.

dang it,so that means that I can get guitar that is other color than black and still get a decent tone?

Db

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~ www.promatsteelguitars.com

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 5 May 2006 1:34 pm

Thanks Dave, but that just opens the door!

For instance, we took the harmonics in the C string, and got a C chord. Then by reinforcing those harmonics by adding strings (G & E), we got two more sets of h1,h3,h5 to deal with. h3 on the C string is G; h3 on the G string is D; h3 on the E string is B, and we have a G chord...further excersises and related conclusions are left to the student.

It is even more fun when freq = Hz = CPS are used instead of note names, sums and differences converted back to note/interval names.

Nature has provided the pattern/path, all we have to do is follow it.

The relative amount of the h's in each string is a function of where and how the string is excited...the right hand/fingers, pick gauge, pick shape picking technique is a major factor in your tone. You can get there by "cut and try", or you can get there via information and reasoning.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 5 May 2006 8:51 pm

Okay, now let me clear this up for you all. Different steel guitar brands have different tone. You will NEVER sound on a Zum like you will on an Emmons P/P. You will NEVER sound the same on a ZB as you will on a Mullen. Sierras do NOT sound like Sho-Buds (EVER, with whatever processor or amp you play them through. You will never get the same tone from a Fender Steel King amp as you will from an Evans. You will NEVER get the same tone from a Peavey Nashville 400 as you will from a Webb. Tone is largely in the rig and NOT from your hands now matter what anyone tells you. Single coil pickups vs. humbuckers effect TONE. Different string gauges effect TONE. If you can't hear the difference in your tone playing on different equipment then you need to get new ears. Bud Carter put BCT on Carters to improve tone (and he did!) Overtones can be built into or taken out of a steel guitar depending on it's design. The veteren builders have known this for decades. Emmons Push/pulls DO have a tonal difference in the overtones coming out of the guitar compared to other brands. People do buy different brand steel guitars and amps for TONE preference. And last but not least, God didn't make little green apples, and it don't rain in Inianapolis in the summertime. The fat lady has sung. Sionara, adios amigo, semphi fidelis, and have a nice night. INCOMING!!!![This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 May 2006 at 09:54 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 5 May 2006 9:31 pm

Hey Seymour, you there? Gimme yo hand , its dark in here! He told me to say it guys.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 May 2006 10:43 pm

dang it,so that means that I can get guitar that is other color than black and still get a decent tone?

I wouldn't go that far, Damir.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 May 2006 1:03 am

Kevin - nobody has said that different guitars don't have different "intrinsic" tonalities to them, all other things being equal. What is being said is that by adjusting technique and perhaps some electronic settings, a player can coax out their own signature sound. IMO, this does not mean that these tones must be identical time-domain duplicates. Just that the important things - the basic amplitude and phase frequency response, signal envelope, attack, and so on, can be made similar enough that the player's signature is recognizable. There are of course limits - a nylon-strung acoustic guitar is very different than a Les Paul. But two solid-body electric guitars of different designs, given similar pickups and strings, can usually be made to sound pretty similar, IMO.

I agree that if one just naturally open-string strums a bunch of different guitars and steels, through the same effect and amp settings, they sound different. I find this difference more wide-ranging on different types of guitars than steels, but I usually notice a difference. But what people say time and time again is that I alway sound "like me", on either guitar or steel, even when I'm playing somebody else's instrument. When somebody else plays one of my guitars, they generally sound completely different - they sound "like them".

For me, the difference between guitars is more about the interaction between me and the guitar. Different guitars definitely feel different from the viewpoint of playability and my interaction with the sound. Of course, there are subtle differences in sound no matter how much you tweak, I don't hear anybody arguing against that.

I also often intentionally use different types of guitars differently. Typically, I play an archtop differently from a Telecaster, which I play differently from a Les Paul, which I play differently than a D-18, to use guitar examples. I try to let different instruments channel me to a different approach or sound. But it's possible, for example, to get a twangin' country sound on a Les Paul Standard with humbuckers, even though it's not usually considered a traditional "twangin' country instrument" - I just did it the other night on a gig, and nobody said "Hey, where's your Tele?". I tweaked it and it sounded twangin'. Did it sound exactly the same? No, but "close enough for gov'ment work". That upper midrange quack was there when I popped it. That was my fingerpicks lifting up the strings and letting them slap back down again. A lot of things transcend the exact type of guitar. Of course, IMO.

BTW, I do agree that string type and gauges are important. I usually find it easier to get a twangin' tone using lighter-gauge strings, and .012-.052 flatwounds make my Tele with mini-humbucker neck pickup a nice jazz guitar. It ain't exactly the same as an archtop, but it passes muster.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 6 May 2006 4:29 am

he he ,Bobby
just kiddin`,I`m sure you know that
I agree 100% with you,right hand plays a huge roll in achiving a tone (good or bad that is)

Db

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~ www.promatsteelguitars.com

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 6 May 2006 6:34 am

To illustrate how much where you pick affects the tone, try this:

Make the best sounding 7th fret finger harmonic you can by plucking the string at different places...now pick at the 19th fret and hear the harmonic go away...pick either side of there, and hear how much it comes back.

The instrument has BASIC sound making capability...all are not alike, the hands and ears work to extract the goodness that the instrument has to give...all hands and ears are not alike.

Frequency Spectrum Analysis (FSA) allows measuring (objectively) what the instrument can supply, and what the hands and ear can extract from it/them.