D13TH tuning update.

[Johnny Cox]

After months of experimenting I have settled on a pedal setup for my D13th tuning. This incorporates ever pedal change I had on my triple neck Zumsteel, E13TH, E9th and C6th. It's all there in 12 strings with 7 floors and 7 knees.

[Greg Cutshaw]

As viewed in open keys of E and C:

Copedant in Excel format

Copedant in pdf format

[Johnny Cox]

As viewed in open keys of E and C:

Copedant in Excel format

Copedant in pdf format

Thanks Greg for the conversion charts. As you all can see both tunings are all there with added changes on both.

[Pete Burak]

Here are Buddy Emmons E9 and C6 Copedants. I use these to see what all should be there when I mess around with Copedants.

[John McClung]

Greg, thanks for the conversions, I'm anxious to study this.

I tried staggered levers on the right at one time, but it messed up my volume pedal work something fierce. I can only imagine a vertical on the right knee would be even worse. But to each their own, we all have limits to adaptation.

[Johnny Cox]

Where is the C-pedal function?... BC pedals down requires P1+P2+LKR?
P7 is on a lever also?
I have tried putting string-4 E to F#, and P7, on a lever instead of a pedal, and the result was that you can't engage/release the lever as fast as you can a pedal. It affected the ability to play fast C-pedal licks and fast P7 licks.

Here are Buddy Emmons E9 and C6 Copedants. I use these to see
what all should be there when I mess around with Copedants.

Go back and look at my chart, it's there now. I mistakenly left it off and now it's there. Greg's doesn't reflect it since I corrected it. There is everything Buddy had except P4 on his C6th and raising the 2and string on E9th. I don't do either of those on my D10.

[Pete Burak]

I see the update, and edited my post
I look forward to the day when all builders can put Buddy Emmons D10 copedant (or anybodys D10 copedant) on an S12U with no mechanical limitations to deal with.

[Johnny Cox]

I see the update, and edited my post
I look forward to the day when all builders can put Buddy Emmons D10 copedant (or anybodys D10 copedant) on an S12U with no mechanical limitations to deal with.

I feel certain that the majority of manufacturers can handle my tuning even with the addition of the 2and string raise and the standard C6th 4th pedal. I'm only using 3 of raise holes on my MSA. I don't base my tuning on what Buddy or really any one single player has/had. I base it what I've learned from all the players before me and my contemporaries had/have.

[Pete Burak]

I see the update, and edited my post
I look forward to the day when all builders can put Buddy Emmons D10 copedant (or anybodys D10 copedant) on an S12U with no mechanical limitations to deal with.

I feel certain that the majority of manufacturers can handle my tuning even with the addition of the 2and string raise and the standard C6th 4th pedal. I'm only using 3 of raise holes on my MSA.

Anybody who wants more than 3 raises on any string is out of luck then.
We need at least 5 raises and 4 lowers on all Changer fingers to make things easy for S12U players of the future, regardless of E9, D13, Bb6, E9/B6, or C6 being the root tuning.

[John McClung]

Concur with my friend Steely Pete. Seeing an Excel in my future unless and until U.S. makers improve and expand their changers. I routinely need 4 raises, and may need more down the road, you never know.

[Pete Burak]

I hope I can try Johnny's Steel in Dallas in a few weeks. I presume the most likely people to give it a shot are existing 12 string players.
I predict having to play around the extra string between strings 4 and 5 will be the thing that screws up my 6th style multi string chord rakes, speed pickin', ...it's right in the middle of my E9th wheelhouse, too.
I can't wait to try it though.
Have you considered putting that extra string on string 1 or 12? How often do you really need it?
Anybody got Chuck Bach's D13 copedant? Is it similar?

[Greg Cutshaw]

The Excel tuner is quite capable. The changer can be viewed as being a 7 raise and 4 lower unit with one raise and one lower dedicated to the lock lever function as denoted in the black outline in the figure below. So for each position of the lock lever there are 6 raises and 3 lowers available. The lock lever also does a change over for the two right knee levers. Not impossible for the Excel to use the D13 tuning to totally reconfigure it!

As setup, my guitar has full E9th and C6 12 string tunings. The lock lever re-configures the entire tuning from E9th to C6 with no missing or out of order strings but also adds 2 low E9th strings and the C6 has the G on top with 2 added chromatic strings. This is not at all the same as a "universal tuning" lock lever.

Personally I would add the C6 pedal 7 function back on the floor and add the greatly debated Franklin pedal making for 9 floor pedals. I would then add the E9th G# to B change back on a knee lever.

On the other hand this tuning opens up things you don't have on a D-10 on either the E9 or C6 tunings.

[Pete Burak]

Greg, I look at it as 7-Raises and 5-Lowers (You don't need to have a Lever Lock). The current changer is a little different than your diagram, I think. The pic below is from a 2018 model with staggared changer finger holes.

The more I look at the E based version of D13th, the more I like E9/B6th Uni. You can tune an E9th/B6th down a full step to D if that is a sound you like, but once the entire band starts playing I don't think that timbre will make a difference.
D13 looks like E9/B6th tuned down a full step, with a dedicated C# right in the middle of the tuning. I must be missing something. That looks like the only major difference.

Sierra is the company I would look to for a changer that could compete with Excel. The company owner plays a Uni and has the financial capability to make us an expanded Changer finger on a Steel that is cost competitive with Mullen and MSA. They are in their infancy (I think only 12 exist) so I hope they will make some ground breaking advancements for the Steel world and not charge 2X of all other brands.

[Johnny Cox]

Greg, I look at it as 7-Raises and 5-Lowers (You don't need to have a Lever Lock). The current changer is a little different than your diagram, I think. The pic below is from a 2018 model with staggared changer finger holes.

The more I look at the E based version of D13th, the more I like E9/B6th Uni. You can tune an E9th/B6th down a full step to D if that is a sound you like, but once the entire band starts playing I don't think that timbre will make a difference.
D13 looks like E9/B6th tuned down a full step, with a dedicated C# right in the middle of the tuning. I must be missing something. That looks like the only major difference.

Sierra is the company I would look to for a changer that could compete with Excel. The company owner plays a Uni and has the financial capability to make us an expanded Changer finger on a Steel that is cost competitive with Mullen and MSA. They are in their infancy (I think only 12 exist) so I hope they will make some ground breaking advancements for the Steel world and not charge 2X of all other brands.

Pete, this tuning is not a D based tuning for the sake of being in D. Unlike the E9/B6 tuning that you either have to lock a lever (rendering it useless) or hold it to play in each mode yet still think in two tunings as on a double neck it's all at your fingertips in one key half way between C and E. If you don't like it that's fine but don't say it's not a good option.

I don't know if you have actually done an head to head cost comparison between the new Sierra and MSA, Mullen ect. If you have you know that the Sierra is much more expensive.

[Pete Burak]

A Lever Lock on a Universal just makes a Universal more Universal. You can play it as one big tuning like D13th, or E9th, or B6th, or even like Sacred Steel.

Johnny I am looking at the Copedants side by side, and it still looks like it is pretty much an S12U E9/B6 tuned down a full step to me, and you have to skip a String right in the middle of the tuning.

I am actually hoping Sierra will buy Excel and have that as their "Budget" model.

[Johnny Cox]

Johnny I am looking at the Copedants side by side, and it still looks like it is pretty much an S12U E9/B6 tuned down a full step to me, and you have to skip a String right in the middle of the tuning.

I am actually hoping Sierra will buy Excel and have that as their "Budget" model.

With D13TH it's not necessary to hold or lock a lever rendering it useless or move back two frets to go from E9 to B6 mode. Everything is played out of the open tuning. So not at all like current universal tunings.

[Pete Burak]

With D13TH it's not necessary to hold or lock a lever rendering it useless or move back two frets to go from E9 to B6 mode. Everything is played out of the open tuning. So not at all like current universal tunings.

A Lever Lock on a Universal just makes a Universal more Universal. You can play it as one big tuning like D13th, or E9th, or B6th, or even like Sacred Steel.
The only thing that seems different about D13th is that extra string in the middle.
Just one example, but, a G7th in E9th on an S12U can be played at Fret-8 with E's lowered and the B-pedal engaged.
A G7th in B6th on S12U is the same exact Fret/Pedal/Lever Combo.
8BE=G7th on both E9 and B6.

[Johnny Cox]

With D13TH it's not necessary to hold or lock a lever rendering it useless or move back two frets to go from E9 to B6 mode. Everything is played out of the open tuning. So not at all like current universal tunings.

A Lever Lock on a Universal just makes a Universal more Universal. You can play it as one big tuning like D13th, or E9th, or B6th, or even like Sacred Steel.
The only thing that seems different about D13th is that extra string in the middle.
Just one example, but, a G7th in E9th on an S12U can be played at Fret-8 with E's lowered and the B-pedal engaged.
A G7th in B6th on S12U is the same exact Fret/Pedal/Lever Combo.
8BE=G7th on both E9 and B6.

The D13TH allows you to play C6th voicings at the same feet with out locking a lever. Only if you are playing strings 10 and 11 do you need to engage the RRKR. I'm not sure that you are seeing this. It doesn't matter, others do.

[Pete Burak]

On E9/B6 Uni, 5AB is a both a D and a D6.
There are tons of pedal/lever combos that can do what you are saying. It is not important enough to add another string in the middle of the tuning in my opinion, just so you can do that in the non-pedal non-lever position.

[Johnny Cox]

On E9/B6 Uni, 5AB is a both a D and a D6.
There are tons of pedal/lever combos that can do what you are saying. It is not important enough to add another string in the middle of the tuning in my opinion, just so you can do that in the non-pedal non-lever position.

You are correct in one thing for sure, it's your opinion.

[Pete Burak]

I recall Al Marcus used to post alot about his E9/E6 tuning. I remember checking that out before he passed.
It's fun to look at your take on it Johnny.
Are you thinking a young fella who has been playing S10 or D10 for a year or two would want to change to D13th?
They could more easily transition to E9/B6.
I definitely don't get why you think it is so cool to play the same chord at the same fret with no pedals/levers.
I can play an open D7th at fret 10 in E9th.
I engage my E lowers and P6, and I am playing a D7th at Fret 10.

[Johnny Cox]

I recall Al Marcus used to post alot about his E9/E6 tuning. I remember checking that out before he passed.
It's fun to look at your take on it Johnny.
Are you thinking a young fella who has been playing S10 or D10 for a year or two would want to change to D13th?
They could more easily transition to E9/B6.
I definitely don't get why you think it is so cool to play the same chord at the same fret with no pedals/levers.
I can play an open D7th at fret 10 in E9th.
I engage my E lowers and P6, and I am playing a D7th at Fret 10.

I don't know you think it's cool to continue arguing about it. Your not obligated to play this tuning. I understand the tuning as I did E9/B6. D13TH is simply easier and makes more sense. If you don't like it fine, move along.

[Pete Burak]

I thought it was a meaningful discussion of 12 string Copedants that are available to all us 12 stringers.
I've been playing 12 string Universal tunings since July '82.
Not an argument at all from my end. Just kickin ideas around and sharing similarities and differences.
Just another day on the Forum.
I hope more players will try your tuning and post about it.
I heard JD likes your tuning. I was showing him my S12U tuning on an Emmons Push-Pull that I have, at the last San Diego Jam. One thing he liked about it was the Push-Pull Tone.
Funn Stuff!
Pete

[Stu Schulman]

I wish I wuz smarter!!

[Craig A Davidson]

It does make sense. Could I change after over 40 years of another tuning? I don't know. If a player started out on this tuning I think they would pick up on it. I have seen clips of Johnny playing this tuning in both styles and it does work.