Vertical Knee What change and Why?

[Randy Carson]

Okay Guys I'm a working professional Fiddle,Guitar,Vocals and played steel in the past. Current steel player works with Johnny Rodriguez so he can't always be there so I'm back at those pedals and of course enjoying it greatly.

Tell me what change you like on the vertical or perhaps any change you've come to appreciate.
I sincerely appreciate the input Thanks Randy

I also will use this is in a duo and other bands.
If by chance you want to ck my band out here's a link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBSs1IeFfKk

[Bob Carlucci]

typically, most steels I have seen lowered the B strings 1/2 tone with the vertical lever.. I lowered the B a full tone, and learned to just go halfway the few times I might need the B-Bb change.. You can use any change you want I suppose, but I usually see B-Bb on that lever,unless things have changed the past few years. bob

[Roger Rettig]

I agree with Bob in that B-Bb is probably most associated with LKV.

That won't work for me. I use that drop a great deal and I dislike vertical 'knees'; I assign my least-used changes to that location (in my case I currently raise the 6th a whole step - interesting, but not in frequent use for me).

I have B-Bb on RKL.

PS: On my Zum Encore the LKV is raising 7,2 and 1; again, that's an 'occasional' pull for me.

[Richard Sinkler]

Used to be F#'s to G a while back. I still have that change on my vertical. I have the B to Bb on my second left knee left. Don't use it there either.

[Randy Carson]

I know a lot of guys like to lower the B or B's there I guess I need to think about what happens when you have a flatted 5th...feel free to elaborate

[Paul Pearson]

I raise my f# to g 1&7 on my vertical and lower 5 b to b flat on ,y rkl

[John Swain]

Tommy White and others lower the 6th string G#-F# on their LKV.

[Randy Carson]

I noticed some guys like Tommy White has 1st and 2nd string raised with a pedal instead of a knee what would be the advantage to that?

[Bob Carlucci]

Tommy White and others lower the 6th string G#-F# on their LKV.

Thats a good change as well for that lever, if you don't have it anywhere else....

[Bob Carlucci]

I noticed some guys like Tommy White has 1st and 2nd string raised with a pedal instead of a knee what would be the advantage to that?

That would be the 1st string F# up a full tone, and the second string Eb up a full tone.. Some guys put that change on a knee, but yes many use it on a pedal. In my opinion, it would be smoother and faster on a pedal, and thats where a lot of guys put it when they have a pedal or two to spare and want a cool sounding , usable change on it.. Lots of E9 only players are going to "fully loaded" copedents with 5 and 5 or even 6 and 5, or 5 and 6, and this change on a pedal would typically make the cut... bob

[Randy Carson]

Thanks Bob
Do you mind sharing one of your favorite changes and how you apply it to a song?

Thanks for your input!

[Bob Carlucci]

Thanks Bob
Do you mind sharing one of your favorite changes and how you apply it to a song?

Thanks for your input!

The change I use the most besides the standard pedal and knee changes that we all use is certainly my 4th pedal that drops my 6th string G# down a full tone.. I use it constantly, but my style is a very basic, very no frills, e9 style from the late 60's early 70's that draws inspiration from the country rock guys, as well as from Brumley and Mooney. Mostly all major/minor chord stuff.
The only changes I use more than that pedal would be my A and B pedals, and my E- Eb lever.
Its hard to say exactly how I use it in a song, but I can relate this to you how I came about it.. Early on, as a young player, I was a MAJOR Flying Burrito Bros fan. Pete Kleinow and his great playing was a huge influence.. When I tried playing some of his stuff, for some reason I got closer to it when I dropped that sting a full tone on a pedal, even though I could not find anything like it in his copedent. go figure.
It simply sounded "right" to me, and it was so much more natural for me on a pedal than on a lever which is where the vast majority of players have it in the modern age.

You simply need to try different things out, on your available pedals/levers and stick with what works for you personally.. thats really how most of us have developed our copedents... bob

[Brooks Montgomery]

I found this helpful
https://youtu.be/cQEtg4fggiQ

[Dale Rivard]

Hi Randy, To answer your question, what happens when you have a b5th. That's true, when you lower strings 5 & 10 in the open position, you get a b5 chord. Another way to look at it is, a smooth method to get from a 1 to a 2/9th chord.

[Bill C. Buntin]

1 & 2 raise whole and 6 lower whole on vertical
5 lowering on rkl

I used to lower 5&10 on the vertical but found it awkward

I still find the vertical awkward somewhat but have gotten used to it to where it is functional.

The string 5 lower on rkl is sort of a pet change for me. I probably overuse it but the places you can use it in songs are numerous. It makes a really cool change with pedals down, because it lowers that c# back to c which throws the a chord with pedals down into a minor. A lot of songs that have a 4, 4- change I use it a lot.

That B to Bb is also heavily used for me when doing Tom Brumley covers, such as cryin time, together again etc.

Several counterpoints can be built and are readily accessible, for me, with the lkv loaded as described. Probably too many to list here.

Once you start using The B to Bb changes, they become second nature as the ab pedals almost. Or at least in my experience.

Bill

[Roger Rettig]

My experience too, Bill. It's almost my most-used 'knee' (RKL for me).

[Ron Pruter]

Randy,
If you want to get the most out of your vertical lowering the b's, 1\2, you will need to have splits.
I wouldn't consider being without that change right where it is. I get Maj7th, 7b9s, min.6th, and many other cool things. RP

[Tony Prior]

I never used the B to Bb, I always had something other, such as drop 6 a whole tone. There are many redundant positions for something SIMILAR or the same as B to Bb drop. To that end, I have always had raise 1,2 and 7 on the RKL.


My Legrande II , I have drop 5 and 6 a whole tone on the V lever. This is 2/3 of the Franklin pedal. Yes it was a bit uncomfortable in the early stages, but the whole dang instrument is uncomfortable ! Today, a year later, it's just routine.

Varied changes are personal. What one person sees as useless or casual can easily be someone else's primary position, and vice versa. No different than phrases on any other instrument, the player has a specific approach which may be totally different than another players approach on the exact same instrument.

We should NEVER add a pull or make a change just because someone else does it. There should always be rational, meaning, we connect the pull with the value.

A few months back I was having a discussion with another fine player here in NC, we were talking about this exact thing, B to Bb. He had the pull, I didn't , I have lower 5 and 6. He said ok , but now you can't do this. I said right, and YOU can't do this !

[Per Berner]

I don't think I could live without raising the 4th string E>F# on the vertical knee. It works very well with A+B engaged – a quick kick upwards is all it takes to get the C pedal licks, without moving the left foot. I have it set to a short throw to add speed. Perhaps I should assign some other change to the C pedal, but I can't think of any that would be useful. Trying the B>Bb on the vertical would be interesting, but not worth the hassle of re-rodding...

[Randy Carson]

Hey Guys
Thanks So Much! for sharing your favorite changes with me! We develop our own styles and way of playing for sure but
you grow by sharing musical knowledge and we are all in this together.
I've always been one when I learn something from another picker I apply it my own way I'm not a note for note guy.