scale length and differences between instruments

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 7 Jan 2006 5:56 pm

okay, i know this has been hashed over many times here, but i have a question. i'm wondering why a steel guitar and the other instruments (six string electric guitars mainly) don't have the same scale lengths? i compared the instruments in my band today and noticed that the guitars were very close to each other, but the steel was a half step behind by the time that you get to the 13th fret. i'm wondering if this is one of the reasons that we steel players have so much trouble with the dichotomy between sounding good to our ears, and being in tune with the rest of the band. seems to me that it would be an overall advantage for a steel manufacturer to take the dimensions of the common guitars and the scale lengths and overall lengths between the bridges and nuts and make something that is close, what do you guys think?

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 7 Jan 2006 11:09 pm

I believe Sierra made a keyless 25 1/2" scale length pedal steel.

The important word there is keyless.

If a keyed steel was made to the same scale length as a Telecaster, then it would probably have to be tuned in a lower register (D9?..C9?)
to avoid string breakage.

Bob Mainwaring · Post by **Bob Mainwaring** » 7 Jan 2006 11:16 pm

On the contrary Richard, with being keyless - it would make the string length shorter rather than take up space and length beyond the rollers.
Just my happeny-worth.

Bob Mainwaring. Z.B.est

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 8 Jan 2006 12:14 am

Clyde Lane · Post by **Clyde Lane** » 8 Jan 2006 12:41 am

Chris tune the top string on a Tele to a G# and then pull it behind the nut up to an A about 500 times and see what happens.
Clyde Lane

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 8 Jan 2006 1:45 am

i'm just working to understand why the steel is layed out like it is. when i went to compare different instruments we are playing with i noticed that the only instruments that had similar scale lengths were the electric guitars, the banjo and steel were really different. my next logical question was why hasn't there been a standardized scale length like the standard 440 A tuning pitch? seems like in order to have all the instruments sounding the best together, the same scale lengths would be a good step to start with. anybody know why this isn't more common (similar scale length) besides intonation preference? something i noticed the other day when practicing is that with a straight up tuning, slanting the bar in different places results in less beats, which i guess is due to the slant taking care of the tempering usually tuned for. maybe some different fretboards are what the doctor ordered, just for kicks with the band to see what happens...

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 8 Jan 2006 2:08 am

...why would equal scale length make the instruments sound better together? If anything, it would only make them sound more uniform, though I believe the effect would hardly be enormous.

An example: If you're recording two guitars, the results will usually be better if one of them has a capo somewhere up the neck, resulting in different chord inversions and a more complex sonic texture.

Another example: An upright bass, a guitar, a mandolin and a 5-string banjo all have very different scale lenghts. In the right hands, they sound just fine together, at least to my ears.

------------------
´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Peavey Nashville 1000

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 8 Jan 2006 2:14 am

yeah you are right about that Per, maybe i'm crazy, i'm always trying to understand the scientific reasons for things as a means to understand other things, if that makes any sense. i would disagree about the uniform sound though, the different instruments each have a different timbre which gives them a unique sound. maybe i am misundertanding your comment...?

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 8 Jan 2006 4:25 am

Sierra made only one 25 1/2" scale model steel-my last Sierra. As far as I know, Sierra did not pursue this scale length. EXCEL produces their Superb model which has the 25 1/2" scale. The fact that the overall length of the string length is actually shorter allows the use of the same ga. strings currently used in the "stndard" tunings. Scale being longer,gages being the same-tension is tighter. Tighter=brighter.
This is still just a personal opinion, but it works well for me.
Bill Stafford

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 8 Jan 2006 4:56 am

... maybe i'm crazy, i'm always trying to understand the scientific reasons for things as a means to understand other things....

I know what you mean, Chris.

Pianos have a standard pitch, but not a standardized scale. The best ones are long, allowing smaller guages, particularly in the wound strings, to achieve the same pitch. The smaller the piano, the more compromises and thus a lack of harmonic clarity (called inharmonicity).
Thus I'm with Bill--the longer, the better.

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 8 Jan 2006 5:07 am

I think sounding good together is dependent upon your intonation. Remember they have fixed frets and you don't.

The scale length and overtone structure can help to hide poor left hand technique. Longer scale lengths are better at doing this than shorter ones.

Understanding the reasons for this will not necessarily make you a better player. but practice and ear training most certainly will.

------------------
John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars

www.steelguitar.com
www.steelguitarinfo.com
www.carterstarter.com
www.magnumsteelguitars.com

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Jan 2006 7:45 am

i'm wondering if this is one of the reasons that we steel players have so much trouble with the dichotomy between sounding good to our ears, and being in tune with the rest of the band.

Truth be known, there is no dichotomy between sounding good and being in tune with the rest of the band, they are one in the same. If you can't get your guitar to sound good both by itself, and in a band context, then you've failed as a musician.

Music is an art form, not a science. Training your ears and practicing will help, whereas scientifically analyzing different aspects of it probably won't.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 8 Jan 2006 8:12 am

Chris: All else being equal, Scale length will begin to affect harmonic content as the string stiffness becomes a larger part of the equatiion...larger diameter strings are stiffer, and longer scales are less sensitive to the stiffness factor.

The string length to scale length ratio is a factor on the PSG. For example, the Sho Bud Professional has a 24" scale and the two center strings have an additional 6" from the nut to the tuner pegs. several things happen here...the string must be stretched more to get a halftone change (as if it were a 30" string); there is the possibility of the beyond the nut resonance interfering with the desired scale pitch to be played; and the string pulled or slacked over the nut may not return to pitch because of friction. Re the first point, some pickers damp the center strings with sleeves, grommets, etc.

The scale length to string length ratio is much better on most keyless instruments...I have a 30" scale and a 31.5" string length.

Fretboards are only for approximate position location...paralax must be considered (where do you sit, and how tall are you?), as well as some fretboards are not very accurate to begin with...the ear is the judge, not the eye.

If one has "good" (need a definition here)right hand technique on a 24" scale length, will it be better on a 25.5" scale length? If yes, why not use the longer scale and everyone can sound better? My 30" scale should be gangbusters if such is the case...the string stiffness effect is also less.

Common scale lengths tunings,and string gauges provide tensions of from 26 to 33 pounds. 33 pounds on the .0110 string (G# to A on E9) is pushing the plasticity limit. Sharp bends in this situation is asking for breakage trouble. A .0115 gauge will help considerably (large increase in cross sectional area) if the same string metal is used.

We did FSA measurements on 31 different PSGs, ranging from over 30 yrs old to new, and having wood, aluminum, and even plexiglass bodies...single and double neck...keyed and keyless, 24" to 30" scales, aluminum, steel, and brass nuts/rollers and changer fingers, etc. The tone and sustain differences were great, but not for any single apparent reason listed above. The differences appeared even within the same brand/time frame.

Enjoy the search Chris.

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 8 Jan 2006 1:13 pm

hey donny, i realize they are one and the same and that music is an art form, but what underlies it is science. talk to top physicists and they will tell you that right now one of the hot things going is how music and vibration relates to the latest breaking knowledge in physics. what i noticed when messing around with the band is that the overall sound is different when tuned ET over JI and that when i am playing by myself, JI sounds best, and when with the band it is the other way around. upon further investigation, i noticed that the scale lengths were all different. usually if you look closely enough to the details, the rest of the story comes out, i'm just looking to understand what my ears know. it seems that more and more i am just playing to my ears and muscle memory and less to the frets, because if i rely on them, they are off.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Jan 2006 11:34 am

I don't see how standardizing scale lengths could possibly result in better sounding music.

Different lengths have different timbres, which helps to define each instrument's space in the mix. The frequencies of the overtone series of each tuned note are the same, regardless of string length. A different string length only changes the amplitudes (volumes) of the various overtone frequencies, not the frequencies (pitches). The frequencies are constant ratios defined by the laws of physics.

Two E strings, one at 23" and the other at 25", can be perfectly in tune. They will have different timbres, but if the string wire is new and true they will sound good together.

To my way of thinking, having a unique scale length for each stringed instrument in the band is a Very Good Idea.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 9 Jan 2006 3:10 pm

I agree with b0b. Think about an alto sax and a tenor sax playing the same note. They are both saxophones, playing the same pitch; however, the timbres will be different.

------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Mullen U-12, Evans FET-500, Fender Steel King

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 9 Jan 2006 3:59 pm

upon thinking about this subject, that i raised, i now agree with b0b. it is all just ratios and relativity to how long the scale is. too much uniformity in scale length might get rid of a lot of uniqueness.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Jan 2006 6:28 pm

I agree that having different scale lengths can be a good thing - mixing timbres helps make instruments stand out - if that's what you like, great. On the other hand, sometimes a closer blend sometimes sounds better. Strictly a matter of personal taste and context.

I used to have a little short-scale black-sparkle Silvertone Danelectro amp-in-the-case guitar that just sat beautifully in any mix I ever used it in. Of course, the problem was keeping the intonation reasonable, it was a bear - I think 21 or 22" scale. But if you could tame the beast, it sounded great.

I also agree that art is art and science is science, but I disagree that science cannot improve art (and probably art can also improve science). Understanding the scientific differences which produce various sounds can help an artist intelligently select what to use. Perhaps one can do this purely experientially. I think it depends on the number of degrees of design freedom. It can get pretty complex, combinatorially, and sometimes a little analytical knowledge can help, provided the ears are used as the final judge. IMO.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 10 Jan 2006 7:18 am

DM...ah yes, the complexities! Once upon a time there was a chap, who would be known if his name was mentioned, that was working on the design of an electric bass. He found that there was a "dead spot" in the scale. The solution was not to change the scale length, but to modify the neck structure.

The point is that changing the scale length requires other changes also. So to what degree would variation of the harmonic content of the strings vibration, and the pickups output be due to the scale length vs. to the structure change(s)?

Art & Science...where does one stop and the other begin? Are they totally separate entities or do they intersect and/or overlap? This would make a good subject for an Aquinas like debate. It seems that Art is a label that "artists" tend to apply to things that they do/like to avoid the demystifying effect that applied "science" would provide.[This message was edited by ed packard on 10 January 2006 at 07:56 AM.]