How to buy a Sho Bud?

Kevin Fix · Post by **Kevin Fix** » 21 Feb 2019 6:57 pm

Me and Sho Buds are inseparable. 37 years.

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 21 Feb 2019 6:59 pm

Thanks for the comments on the guitars, Rick you gave us some great examples from you,and Loyd. And yes there is no debating the player is in control of a lot of the sound.
Here is another of my favorites:

https://youtu.be/73JJfmpTb8g

Bobby Nelson · Post by **Bobby Nelson** » 22 Feb 2019 1:42 am

I posted a thread months ago about getting a guitar to sound like an old Bud. The general consensus was this: Nothing but a Bud sounds like a Bud.

I'm very happy with my guitar, but here is a very good example of why we love Sho-Buds.

https://youtu.be/ViY2WXvVXYU?list=PLDIG ... Y72EPflsAz

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 Feb 2019 4:43 am

As always in this type of thread, the discussion has devolved into - "Sho Buds are Junk, they explode when you touch them"
or "Sho buds are great- mine is 60 years old, still has the original strings is still in tune from the factory, and is so beautiful you turn to salt if you look at it"

These are the questions the OP asked..

1-What do I look for in a Sho Bud?

2- Are there good years, years to avoid?

3-I would want a relatively maintenance free one, so what do I look for specifically in terms of restoration or work done?

4-Are these stable guitars that hold tube well?

I'll try to address these questions without undue emotion...

1- Clean undercarriage thats obviously well maintained..
No holes worn into ovals on pedal attachment points, etc..
Tight fitting wood joints, no big gaps between endplates and body, no large cracks in body..

2- I would avoid the earlier ones such as Fingertips/Permanents/Crossovers etc..

3- Your best bet is finding one that has been professionally restored with modern parts,, Tough to find, but there are a few out there.. They are usually more expensive, but might be a better buy in the long run.. Whenever they come up for sale on this forum, they are sold the same day..
a LOT of old buds are simply worn out, and need restoration, if you want them to perform properly.

4- Some are stable no doubt.. Too many good players use and have used them over the decades for them not to be...

Sadly, a lot more of them are temperamental, finicky, and need tweaking regularly, lots of adjustment and regular maintenance.. They are simply large pieces of wood glued together with many small parts screwed in, and stuff expands and contracts, causing tuning/stability issues especially as parts wear out over time....

These days most pedal guitars have a frame or subframe made of extruded aluminum thats very rigid.. Its tightly secured into the wood body in a way it doesn't move, and then the undercarriage parts are mounted into this aluminum frame, providing much improved stabilty, and longer service time for the parts ...

Many restored Buds I have seen had aluminum frames rerofitted, and modern precision machined components installed.. Best of both worlds.. Vintage Sho Bud looks and sound, modern technology "under the hood"..
A downside to this approach is some guys claim it alters the sound.. Could be I suppose, but you would have to have pretty good ears..

In any case to the OP.. If you buy an old bud, play it and enjoy it.. just realize that its not a modern high tech pedal steel, and most likely won't behave like one.. UNLESS you get a really good one.. They are out there... bob

Joseph Carlson · Post by **Joseph Carlson** » 22 Feb 2019 8:59 am

Hey Charley,

Not sure where in CA you are, but I've got a couple different Sho-Buds you are welcome to try out.

I'm sure there are probably a few Buds in most areas in the state.

As far as Sho-Buds, I've owned Mullen, GFI, Pedalmaster, and Dekley steels and I've played countless other brands and yes, modern steels play easier, stay in tune a little better and are generally a little lighter, but to me, nothing sounds quite like an old Sho-Bud.

That is the sound I hear in my head and that is the sound I want to hear coming out of my amp, so I just decided to man up and deal with all of the other stuff that comes along with owning a vintage guitar.

Joe

Ryan Dyck · Post by **Ryan Dyck** » 22 Feb 2019 12:11 pm

Seems to me there is way too much worry about potential issues with vintage buds. Listen to the great records from the 60s, which in my opinion was the best decade for steel guitar. Sho-Bud and Emmons guitars on the majority of those recordings I think it safe to presume. The small amount of issues that may come with the vintage guitars are worth it for the tone that you'll get.

Dave Campbell · Post by **Dave Campbell** » 22 Feb 2019 1:50 pm

bob said it well.

you need to have a good look at the undercarriage to see if it is clean. that's a really good indication of how it has been maintained, and can be an indication of how much wear is on the parts.

the collars on the rods in two hole puller designs have been known to wear, but replacements are available.

when looking at bud, i always check the tops of the fingers. if the chrome plated fingers are grooved or worn, it might not be possible to polish them. if that's the case you need to find replacements in good shape, or have someone make you new tops for the fingers.
either way you're looking at taking the changer apart. if the fingers are aluminum you might still have your work cut out for you if it's been rode hard.

the most desirable model in my opinion would be the models with barrels behind two hole pullers. on these you get the smoothness of the two hole pullers with the easier to maintain aluminum fingers.

i gigged an old bud for a few years and it never let me down. tuning it a few times a gig seemed like a good trade for the vintage feel and that great ol sho bud tone.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 22 Feb 2019 9:21 pm

Ricky Davis wrote:Thanks b0b so much for the kind words.
And very nice post Bob Muller.
Here's my favorite LDG sound text>
https://youtu.be/GM7Fi2tqGo0

wow just wow, Sho Bud tone to the bone, absolutely beautiful , thanks Ricky

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 23 Feb 2019 12:04 am

great session guy Dun Dugmore doesn't play anything but his Sho Bud, and he is all over the sessions around Nashville ... I guess he just doesn't care much about that "I got to have the newest guitar" thing ... his old Sho Bud suits him just fine...

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 23 Feb 2019 3:18 am

Damir Besic wrote:

great session guy Dun Dugmore doesn't play anything but his Sho Bud, and he is all over the sessions around Nashville ... I guess he just doesn't care much about that "I got to have the newest guitar" thing ... his old Sho Bud suits him just fine...

Thats not the point Demir... Dan is a pro, and has been at it for a long time.. his instruments are most likely very well maintained, and by this time, its well established that his buds are solid, reliable performers in the hands of an expert...

The discussion here is about a guy playing a very short time, that does not know a lot about pedal steels, buying a 40 year pedal steel guitar that might be totally worn out, and a total headache... He needs to be a little careful and understand that although he might get a great one, he might also get a real dog...

My best advice to the OP is this...
If you decide you want to buy an old Bud, get one from a dealer that has gone through it, set it up properly,and will stand behind it 100%..

You will pay more from a dealer, but your chances of disappointment are a lot smaller.
I speak from experience.. I have bought a lot of lousy stuff off a lot of people because I HAD to have it and it was "priced right".. Its a look before you leap thing.. I tend to leap first, before looking.

Something like an old Sho bud should not be purchased by a beginner because its "cool".. He should buy one that he knows will be a good quality instrument and not end up a headache..

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 23 Feb 2019 5:54 am

Bob I wasn't giving any advice, I was stating the fact that Sho Buds can stand up to any other guitar out there...

Dave Campbell · Post by **Dave Campbell** » 23 Feb 2019 6:32 am

for what it's worth, i bought my sho bud after playing for about 6 months on a stage one, and i live a full days drive from anyone who could help me a fix a problem. i didn't end up with a real beaten up bud, but it did need a few tweaks here and there, and eventually warranted a full refurbishment. the result was that i learned a huge amount about how pedal steels work and how i wanted one to feel. i also ended up with a really nice sho bud.

if you never want to flip your guitar over, i wouldn't recommend buying an old sho bud. if you don't mind keeping on top of maintenance and maybe fooling around underneath once in a while, and maybe learning a thing or two about how pedal steels work, then i think it'd be pretty hard to find a better sounding guitar for the money. this is especially true when we have the luxury of coming on the forum and getting lots of information and help.

in my experience with gear, if you're curious enough about a certain thing to ask about it, then eventually you're just going to go ahead and make the plunge anyhow. if you buy a bud and it doesn't work out for you, then sell it and buy something else. you'll gain lots of insight into what you're looking for, you'll forever quiet the "i wonder..." voice in your head, and you just might end up falling in love!

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 23 Feb 2019 7:01 am

Beautifully put, Dave.

Dave Campbell · Post by **Dave Campbell** » 23 Feb 2019 7:53 am

ha, i should have said you might end up falling in love for a while, but eventually you'll fall in love with something else and buy that, too!

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 23 Feb 2019 12:18 pm

"I would want a relatively maintenance free one"

These are the OP's own words.. If thats REALLY the way he's thinking, an old bud that hasn't been restored is probably not the right guitar... Thats why i wrote that if he wants a bud, he should buy one thats been restored, or at least gone through by someone that knows them, and will guarantee what he sold...... bob

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 23 Feb 2019 12:43 pm

Bob Carlucci wrote:if he wants a bud, he should buy one thats been restored, ...

That is no guarantee that it will work right.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 23 Feb 2019 1:27 pm

b0b wrote: You can go to a steel show and never see one on stage. There's a reason for that.

Last year at Dallas there was at least one on stage.(Lloyd Green) We usually average at least one at our show every year. I own two Sho-Buds and tuning has never really been an issue. I can check my open tuning and run with everything for the night if I have to. They sound great and I would be hard pressed to part with either one. I can't believe Mr. Carlucci that if you are not that fond of them you would have owned around a dozen in your years of playing.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 23 Feb 2019 5:14 pm

Craig A Davidson wrote:
b0b wrote: You can go to a steel show and never see one on stage. There's a reason for that.
Last year at Dallas there was at least one on stage.(Lloyd Green) We usually average at least one at our show every year. I own two Sho-Buds and tuning has never really been an issue. I can check my open tuning and run with everything for the night if I have to. They sound great and I would be hard pressed to part with either one. I can't believe Mr. Carlucci that if you are not that fond of them you would have owned around a dozen in your years of playing.

You have been reading something very different from what I have written here here my friend... I have stated in this very thread the fact that I adore Sho Buds, and yes, over 42 years I have had 12 of them... As a musician who was constantly on stage sometimes 7 nights a week , I simply found them much more problematic than other brands.. Bring them from a trailer to stage lights, and the guitars would be totally out of tune at the keyhead, and the endplates, I would tune completely, and after 1/2 an hour I would be touching up the end plate nylons again between songs.. things of that nature..

To be fair, a few were better than others, but some were just terrible.. My ProIII an an old 6140 that started life as a 6 pedal no knee rack and barrel guitar were the most stable, but neither compared to all the other brandsI played in a playing career that spanned over 4 decades.. I had no issues other than tuning with sho buds.. I stated more than once i do realize there are some good ones,,, However the fact remains, despite their great looks, fantastic sound, and easy playability, few are used by pro players these days, However you see old Emmons guitars everywhere.. Why would that be? tuning stability is not a weak point on an old Emmons.. I have talked to many great players with a lot of experience that have buds, love them, but keep them at home because of tuning issues.. Again not all, some are stable no question..

There's a very good player here on this forum, a well known guy that every single person here on this forum knows and likes very much.. He rarely comments in this type of thread and I cannot name him, but he PM'd me on this subject with these words about Sho buds..
"I like them, I've owned them, but I've never met one that would stay in tune".. That is the experience of some players.. If you have a truly good one, don't sell it.. bob

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 23 Feb 2019 5:18 pm

Earnest Bovine wrote:
Bob Carlucci wrote:if he wants a bud, he should buy one thats been restored, ...
That is no guarantee that it will work right.

Correct, but the chances are a lot better.. Especially the Marrs conversions.. Bulletproof work, and from what I gather Duane did a lot of them years ago...

I don't know why that would be- considering that in stock configuration they are such towering paragons of stability,,, according to some of our friends here... bob

Andrew Roblin · Post by **Andrew Roblin** » 23 Feb 2019 5:23 pm

As a beginner 13 years ago, I bought two single-neck Sho-Buds. One was a rack-and-barrel I got on the Forum. The other was a barrel-and-puller I got on ebay.

I learned on them, gigged on them and still have them. Everything I needed to know about maintenance--they didn't need repairs--I learned by reading Ricky Davis on the Forum.

Sho-Buds are great instruments that were built to last.

No regrets.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 23 Feb 2019 7:06 pm

Bob I probably came off a bit harsh with my reply but your post made Sho-Buds seem like the worst guitars in the world to own. For that I apologize and would like to add that I lucked out on my two Sho-Buds. I have had a couple other brands which will go nameless that I couldn't keep in tune from the first string until I got the last string tuned. I won't bring them up because this thread is about Buds. The thing with Sho-Buds is you just have to play them. You cant be tearing them apart and trying to add all your little things to them. You have to take them as they are. I would say that a beginner should look at a model from about 73 on. Beginners have no chance with a Fingertip or Permanent.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 23 Feb 2019 7:07 pm

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 24 Feb 2019 9:02 am

Craig A Davidson wrote:Bob I probably came off a bit harsh with my reply but your post made Sho-Buds seem like the worst guitars in the world to own. For that I apologize and would like to add that I lucked out on my two Sho-Buds. I have had a couple other brands which will go nameless that I couldn't keep in tune from the first string until I got the last string tuned. I won't bring them up because this thread is about Buds. The thing with Sho-Buds is you just have to play them. You cant be tearing them apart and trying to add all your little things to them. You have to take them as they are. I would say that a beginner should look at a model from about 73 on. Beginners have no chance with a Fingertip or Permanent.

No, there are much worse guitars than sho buds out there, thats for sure... A sho bud is a good guitar, not a bad one. IF, you get one thats stable and hasn't been beat up and worn out.
There are a lot of bad sho buds out there. Wear and tear is the main culprit, and as a great steel guitar technician once said to me-
"some pieces of wood have no business being in a pedal steel guitar"
My dream is to find a nice old round front S 10 with 2 hole puller and a 2&1 or early 2&2 changer, and original coil tap pickup.. Keep dreaming right?... One thats solid that I can play for an hour without having to tune up... It is out there, but I personally have not found it... Most of my buds were bought online , and that has been an issue.. Worn out , used up, out of tune guitars for the most part.. My old round front that I played in the early 80's, and my Pro III I played for several years in the 90's were both close to acceptable in tuning stability,, Not near as good as my modern guitars, but I could sort of deal with them because of their lovely sound... Both of those were bought locally, and I could play them... My 10 online buys were all pretty much disasters... Just constant tuning issues especially under the hot stage lights, so I defaulted to Carter or MSA guitars for the most part for stage work.. The right Bud for me may turn up, and now that I am no longer playing on stage, if it does, I will buy it.. However, knowing what I know, I will never buy a bud on someone's word unless I am told, "send it back if its not right".. One may turn up at a steel guitar shop one day that I will snap up, as long as the seller assures me its a "good one".. No more handyman specials underneath that look good on the outside... My next steel will be a good S10 round front, or an S10 ZB... One is out there, just not easy to find.. You have a couple of really good sho buds. Thats great, I wish I did as well. Like I stated, hang on to them... bob

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 24 Feb 2019 1:25 pm

this was just done with my Pro III

https://youtu.be/5bGwE1h4ZhQ

I am more than happy with the tone, and I think Sho Bud is one of the best guitars money can buy...

Carl Williams · Post by **Carl Williams** » 24 Feb 2019 2:42 pm

A Beaut Damir....great video as well! Carl